YH v TS - round 3 <no 8 legged creatures>

[TMFoss]

According to YH, a single resource center produces 20 resource points per turn.&nbsp; Yet in stock, my resource centers produce about 1.2 tons of resources per day per center.&nbsp; So the fundemental question is- does one resource point equal one ton of supplies or is their a conversion factor?&nbsp; Our concern does not seem to be if there are enough resources available, but is there enough shipping tonnage to handle this.&nbsp; AB says that one size 10 port can handle 176,000 points per day, but is that tons?&nbsp; That would be the equivalent of emptying a 50 ship convoy in one day!&nbsp; I am usually pretty good with numbers and somehow these don't make sense to me.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: TMFoss

According to YH, a single resource center produces 20 resource points per turn.  Yet in stock, my resource centers produce about 1.2 tons of resources per day per center.  So the fundemental question is- does one resource point equal one ton of supplies or is their a conversion factor?  Our concern does not seem to be if there are enough resources available, but is there enough shipping tonnage to handle this.  AB says that one size 10 port can handle 176,000 points per day, but is that tons?  That would be the equivalent of emptying a 50 ship convoy in one day!  I am usually pretty good with numbers and somehow these don't make sense to me.

Yes one point does roughly correspond to one ton, but there are different types of "tons" when it comes to shipping, so I think I will have to leave a proper answer to this question to the naval team. They should also be able to provide an answer as to how much cargo the world's largest ports in 1941 could handle.

Andrew

[TMFoss]

Thanks, I will leave this to the naval team. I am aware that GRT and actuall tonnage does vary, but not by orders of magnitude as this seems to do. Anyway, I need to be off to bed soon. Have a good day AB.

-tfoss from one of the new bases on the AE map (don't know what hex yet)

[pad152]

Andrew

Yamato says 90K resources per day, you say 40K-50K per day? If the people involued in the project and playing the game for months can't figure this out or keep it straight, how are we players going to?

I think we (I do) need the dummies guide to the Japanese production & economy.

PS If you ever figure this out, maybe you should write, "The Dummies Guide to Fixing the US Economy" and send it to Washington DC, because no one there seems to have a clue either! [:D]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Right now only 5500 of Kyushus excess resources is reaching Honshu. The remaining 20,000 per day will have to be shipped over. And thats just getting started. That still puts us over 90,000 a day short.

That's gota be per month, not per day! Somebody needs to re-review Japanese production, because even the testers don't understand it![8|]

this means more than 50 of those AKs in the screenshot completely unloading PER DAY??? [X(] If you want to have this happening every day how many AKs do you need? 500? 1000? WITP was logistics in the Pacific but if you now even have to ship around resources within Japan I guess this is a bit too much of detail... [&:]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Grotius

It needs 111,400 resources a day

Then "resources" must be denominated differently in AE, no? In my current stock game as Japan against the AI, the Home Islands (not just Honshu) use about 10-15,000 resources a day as of August 1942. That's an order of magnitude less than the figure you're quoting. Presumably one stock resource is the equivalent of about 10 AE resources?

Each "resource center" in AE (basically the same as a resource center in stock) produces 20 resource points per day. Oil centers produce 10 oil points per day. So this: Produces 3600 per day.



a light industry uses 15 resources per day and heavy industry uses 20 resources and 2 FUEL a day.

this means a resource center produces 20 times more resources than in stock WITP. What does that mean in regards to cargo capacity of AKs? The AKs you´ve posted in the screenshot don´t even hold 2000 tons and are "L" AKs (guess this means "large" [X(]). A large AK in WITP was 7000 tons and you needed a lot of them to ship resources around that a) were only 1/20 of the total now in AE, b) you didn´t need AKs within Japan and c) they were three times bigger than those AKs in the screenshot.

Am confused... [&:]

[bradfordkay]

It seems to me that what the AE team is doing is trying to satisfy both Brady and the AFBs at the same time. One of the complaints about WITP was that the Japanese had far more shipping than is needed for the game - and yet Brady was complaining that there was a huge amount of Japanese shipping that wasn't even in the game.

So, how do you include the historical ships that were missing from the game without further increasing the excess amount? By making a need for the shipping - as it was IRL.

Bravo!

[Yamato hugger]

xAKLs are actually the small ones.



Edit: I think the "L" means "light" or "lighter"

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Andrew

Yamato says 90K resources per day, you say 40K-50K per day? If the people involued in the project and playing the game for months can't figure this out or keep it straight, how are we players going to?

I think we (I do) need the dummies guide to the Japanese production & economy.

PS If you ever figure this out, maybe you should write, "The Dummies Guide to Fixing the US Economy" and send it to Washington DC, because no one there seems to have a clue either! [:D]

I said you need 90k more a day yes, but I hadnt gotten to Shikoku or Hokkaido yet that was just after Kyushu. Somewhere around 45k sounds about right.

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Andrew

Yamato says 90K resources per day, you say 40K-50K per day? If the people involued in the project and playing the game for months can't figure this out or keep it straight, how are we players going to?

He is counting some of the intra-island transfers as well. I was not. I also stated in my post that the values are still being reviewed and my figure was the result we are aiming for.

Andrew

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: TMFoss

Thanks, I will leave this to the naval team. I am aware that GRT and actuall tonnage does vary, but not by orders of magnitude as this seems to do. Anyway, I need to be off to bed soon. Have a good day AB.

-tfoss from one of the new bases on the AE map (don't know what hex yet)

Just to clarify what I said, the "order of magnitude" does not relate to differences in tonnage types, but to the difference between how much "resources" are required to be shipped to Japan in WitP, as opposed to how much was required in real life. The current game does not adequately represent what was involved in running the Japanese economy.

There are big changes to how the economy operates in AE, which I think will take players a bit of getting used to, and this is one of them. But the playtesters could explain that better than I can. I am still looking forward to the time when I have the spare time to actually play!

Andrew

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Very cool results.

Question though: I never even thought about this in WITP, but wasn't USS Pennsylvania in dry dock on Dec. 7? I assume dry dock status isn't modeled in AE, or else the Japanese here are using the most-feared-highly-rare air-swimming torpedo. <grin>

I haven't researched her status, but I recall photos of a shattered destroyer sharing the same slip with the BB, both high and dry after the attack.

Dry docks ARE a part of the new repair system (when I get a cripple home, I will put up a screen shot of it) but due to time constraints torpedo attacks dont look at ships in drydock as ineligible targets. Maybe in a patch.

What I figured. It's fine of course. I just thought that on this one, first historical turn the system might know the exact position of each US ship and guide torpedoes away from docks.

I looked at some history after I posted and was not surprised to see that my memory was faulty. The drydock gate was closed that morning, but it was at least partly flooded. The (two) DDs in there with Pennsylvania had capsized, not fallen off the blocks as my mental picture had them. The text reported that Penn. was supposed to have come out of the dock on Dec. 6, but did not. Given that yard-rats don't like to work on Sundays, perhaps they'd flooded down Saturday in expectation of a Monday float out.

I also learned that the attackers expended torpedoes trying to breach the drydock's caisson, whcih I had not known.

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Just to clarify what I said, the "order of magnitude" does not relate to differences in tonnage types, but to the difference between how much "resources" are required to be shipped to Japan in WitP, as opposed to how much was required in real life. The current game does not adequately represent what was involved in running the Japanese economy.

There are big changes to how the economy operates in AE, which I think will take players a bit of getting used to, and this is one of them. But the playtesters could explain that better than I can. I am still looking forward to the time when I have the spare time to actually play!

Andrew

Thanks for all the posts Andrew. Great to see that things for both sides, in every way, will be closer to reality.

[greg_slith]

I've got to say the thing that always put me off of playing Japan in the Big Scenario was the production/economy thing. I was/am totally confused by the entire thing. Now AE looks like it's going to be even more challenging[&:]. I understand that not forcing Japan to import oil and resources would be totally unhistoric, but jeesh, help a brother out. I sure wish a clear, consise "How To" manual will be included that details how to make the Japanese economy function. I'd love to try and play Japan but with such a time commitment that this game takes I'd go postal if I find that i screwed myself with the economy 6-12 months into the game (both real time and game time).

Sorry for the rant... everything else looks great!!

[Dili]

Dry docks ARE a part of the new repair system (when I get a cripple home, I will put up a screen shot of it) but due to time constraints torpedo attacks dont look at ships in drydock as ineligible targets. Maybe in a patch.

I hope that floating drydocks can be sunk, like the one that was at Malta.

[Grotius]

Thanks for the explanations, YH and Andrew. I really like the principle here -- put all Japan's shipping on the map, but also include the concomitant RL demands on that shipping. I love the production aspect of playing Japan, so the more detail the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Hope we didn't derail your AAR too much, YH. Looking forward to more installments.

[pad152]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: pad152

Andrew

Yamato says 90K resources per day, you say 40K-50K per day? If the people involued in the project and playing the game for months can't figure this out or keep it straight, how are we players going to?

He is counting some of the intra-island transfers as well. I was not. I also stated in my post that the values are still being reviewed and my figure was the result we are aiming for.

Andrew

Does anyone know what these numbers look like in 1943 or 1944?

Has anyone even tried to move 90K of resources into Honshu per day for a complete month (2.73 million resources), is it even possible?

Can Japan even afford to expand any factories? I hope there is an undo button for any factory changes, so that players can change a factory, see the results on the net change on resources, HI, supplies, oil, etc., then change it back if they don't like the effect on resources or go over budget.

I also hope there is a better way to expand a factory than to just to double it, ability to change a factory by the number of airframes, engines, etc.

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

Hope we didn't derail your AAR too much, YH. Looking forward to more installments.

Treespider is out of town until tomorrow, so I am taking my time and going through the Jap inventory 1 at a time. Im not done with that yet [:D]

[John Lansford]

Going back to that screen shot on the Pearl Harbor attack, how did you manage to get 73 torpedo hits?&nbsp; I thought there were fewer than 40 planes carrying torpedoes in the real attack, and you only had 144 Kates and some were supposed to be horizontal bombers.

[Yamato hugger]

Thats one of the reasons why we do testing. So we can see potential problems like this and look at the code and see if something is amiss or if it was just dumb luck.

But as far as numbers of "special torpedoes", that part isnt specifically modeled into it. Chances of a Kate carrying a bomb or a torpedo is random not hard coded. This particular day they all carried torpedoes. This isnt going to change. Its random.

If the KB went home, reloaded, and went back to Pearl and attacked again, they would also carry torpedoes in that attack. The game isnt that detailed that the depth of the water in every port on the map is modeled and isnt likely to ever be.