Directive 21 playtesters thread

[SMK-at-work]

The trouble with such an organisation is the effect that it has in TOAW - units like this just swan around behind enemy lines "forever" - never in supply but cutting rail, etc all the way back to the Urals and beyond - Elmer just can't answer them.  Somewhere on this thread I have a picture of one doing that.

So while the organisation my be fine historically it's not reasonable in TOAW vs Elmer.

That is hte reason they were cut back to foot movement a version or 2 ago - to stop human players using them excessively in an unhistorical manner

[sPzAbt653]

SMK is correct on all points. And I think I still have to work on impeding the use of some of the other units in ways that hurt Elmer unrealistically. I really like the idea of adding some artillery to the corps HQ's. It slows them down and gives reason to keep them in good shape and in friendly territory. The problem is that with the corps HQ's being independant, you can just load them all up on a certain hex and blast away. Of course, that can be done now, so what's the difference?

[sPzAbt653]

Turn 160. After having swept the Moscow area clear just 20 turns ago, I didn't expect to have this much trouble so soon. I was holding along the blue line with infantry divisions all in excellent shape, and with a secondary line of Luftwaffe divisions every other hex, interspersed with whatever else could be used. Now I'll have to fall back to the red line and hope that this doesn't continue. If it does, I'll have to call off my offensive in the south and get back to cleaning up this area again.

[vahauser]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

The trouble with such an organisation is the effect that it has in TOAW - units like this just swan around behind enemy lines "forever" - never in supply but cutting rail, etc all the way back to the Urals and beyond - Elmer just can't answer them.  Somewhere on this thread I have a picture of one doing that.

So while the organisation my be fine historically it's not reasonable in TOAW vs Elmer.

That is hte reason they were cut back to foot movement a version or 2 ago - to stop human players using them excessively in an unhistorical manner

Well, then the only way to truly stop this abuse is to eliminate all ants. All Axis battalions and divisional HQs need to be done away with. Further, all Axis regiments should be folded into their divisions so they can't divide into battalions (which are then used as ants). Then, all that will be left are divisions and higher HQs. At that point, the human player will have to divide into regiments (or use Corps/Army HQs), and regiments aren't very good ants.

Seems to me that ants have ruined other games and now they are ruining Directive 21, too. This is not good news.

[SMK-at-work]

Now that's using a sledgehammer...cough...to crush an ant!!

The Brandenburgers work pretty well with foot movement - each "ant" needs to be assessed in its own right IMO.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: vahauser

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Both gun types have a 2 hex range, though there are equivalent equiptment types with 1 hex range (in the case of of the 105mm one would have to go with the Russian 107mm gun).

I don't think folding Art into Korps HQ's alone will work since IMO you are missing one important factor. You seem to assume that the default state of a German Division will be as one unit. While I haven't played long enough to find out myself, I strongly suspect this will not be the case in the second half of the war. What I think will happen is that after the initial phase is over, splitting up the division into 2-3 subunits will become the norm since this is the only way to deal with the length of frontage and/or construct a defense with any depth. Also the Germans will probably need to do this in 42 already in order to form concentrations IF they go for a southern strategy in 41 (anybody done this yet?). If this is in fact the case, then having heavily reinforced Korps HQ's will not be do much good, since they cant cover enough frontage by themselves.

A possible alternative I see is deleting the Div HQ's, and splitting up the longer ranged Art between the Korps HQ and new artificial Art Br (f.e. 1 independant Art unit for every 3? Divisions). Doesn't reduce the unit count quite as much, but provides the flexibility the Germans IMO need to have a chance in the later part of the game.

I agree that the unit count is (too) high, but IMO this is an inevitable side effect of the chosen hex size and I don't see any solutions that don't have severe side effects.

Okay, Norm gave the 105s a 2-hex range, but operationally they should only have a 1-hex range (they almost never operated more than about 5-6km from the front). And if the 105s are given to the divisions, then at least when the divisions must divide later in the game to cover wider frontages, then the breakdowns will at least have some organic 105s immediately available (and not dependent on other artillery units that might not be locally available).

[As an aside, I'm still bothered about all those security regiments, too. They should be all folded into divisions and required to divide just like the infantry divisions. Further, having those independent security regiments gives the human player a ready source of throw-away battalions to be used in soak-off attacks against strong Soviet positions (in other words, ANTs), which is a serious abuse. Further, giving all those independent security regiments a proficiency superior to German infantry regiments (which are only 64% proficiency when divided from their parent divisions) is just wrong. Please fold all those independent regiments (and most especially those inferior-quality SS infantry "Volksdeutsch" abominations) into their parent divisions.]

I agree about the SEC Regiments.

Re Artillery, I've noticed that the Divisions have 150mm How assigned which just have 1 hex range, this doesn't make much sense. As such one could either follow your suggestion and disburse them to the Divisions directly or else give the Div HQ's 150mm Guns.

[vahauser]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Now that's using a sledgehammer...cough...to crush an ant!!

The Brandenburgers work pretty well with foot movement - each "ant" needs to be assessed in its own right IMO.

There is no such thing as a harmless ant. They all have a cumulative effect that ruins games.

You say that the current Brandenburgers work okay now? I don't believe that. Their air-transport weight is so low now that players can drop all 5 in a single turn. At least with the TOE I provided above, players couldn't drop more than a couple in a single turn because they have a higher air-transport weight.

And all those panzer recon battalions can still do what you and sPzAbt653 complained about the Brandenburgers doing (namely, running around in the Soviet rear areas while at Red 0% cutting supplies, etc.).

And all those security regiments can be divided into their battalions to be used as throw-away "fort-line" busters.

And all those divisional HQs can pile into a few hexes (it is easy to get 6-12 divisional HQs in range of a single attack hex) to support a single attack. This is an abomination. Divisional artillery was never stripped away from divisions and massed into Grand-Batteries to support a single attack. This is about as opposite from history as it is possible to get. Only Corps and Army artillery should be separate. Divisional artillery should only be allowed to support its own division (plus any other units fighting in the same combat as that division).

Every ant is harmful to the game. And the cumulative effect of all those ants is catastrophic.

[sPzAbt653]

Feel free to take your bad attitude elsewhere.

[vahauser]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Feel free to take your bad attitude elsewhere.

Let me try a different approach. What would you like me to do to make your scenario batter?

EDIT: Or let me rephrase. What kind of attitude constitutes a "good attitude" in your opinion? I honestly want your scenario to be the best it can be.

[SMK-at-work]

You can't airdrop the pz division recon units behind the soviet lines and then have them motorised move to Japan!

Are you aware that three's a 10 hex "house rule" for Airdrops?  No more than 10 hexes from the nearest axis unit - this plus the limits of foot movement make the Brandenburgers work well - and I see no reason why all the units can't be dropped in a singel turn either.

from your comments are you actually playing the game?  If not then I suggest you need to before you can make judgements like this.

And I'll repreat - there's no need to change the Brandenburgers because OTHER units are a problem

[sPzAbt653]

Turn 161. 1-3-43, progress in the Southern Offensive. 1st Panzer Army is moving south, generally rolling down the Soviet flank. Elmer has thrown up a screen of tank brigades but I can squeeze thru them fairly easy.

As the Panzer Division refits started a few turns ago, I noticed that my new units are full up with Panthers and IVh's. I think the Panthers did start production in January '43, but they weren't around in any great numbers unitl the summer, and the IVh's production started in 3-43. It's really difficult to get any proper mix of stuff in the equipment slots, but I took it upon myself to redo all these units so that they mostly use the IVf2's(aka g's) and IIIj's until the summer of '43. Then the refits occur and the Panthers and IVh's are in.

[sPzAbt653]

My ad hoc SS Panzer Korps in action. Wiking is the only one of the big four available, as LAH, DAS and TK must be off in France on holiday, or something. But I still have the RF Brigades, a cavalry division called Florian Geyer, 6 and 7 SS Mtn Divisions, and then the SS Polizei mopping up the rear area.

[sPzAbt653]

2nd Panzer Army has closed up on the Don River at Voronezh and Lipetsk. That's about as far east as I want to go right now, it's more important to try to keep getting to the south. It doesn't look like Elmer has much in that direction (I guess I'm about 100-200 miles in his rear), and yes, my Brandenburgers are galavanting across the countryside. I was worried that situations like this would be tripping objectives and causing whole formations to chase after the ants, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I think Elmer is maybe able to judge his threat priorities.

[sPzAbt653]

3rd and 4th Panzer Armies are needed to hold this part of the line until I can get some Infantry Divisions shifted in from their positions off to the west. It doesn't take the Soviets long to put a line back together.

[vahauser]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

You can't airdrop the pz division recon units behind the soviet lines and then have them motorised move to Japan!

Are you aware that three's a 10 hex "house rule" for Airdrops?  No more than 10 hexes from the nearest axis unit - this plus the limits of foot movement make the Brandenburgers work well - and I see no reason why all the units can't be dropped in a singel turn either.

from your comments are you actually playing the game?  If not then I suggest you need to before you can make judgements like this.

And I'll repreat - there's no need to change the Brandenburgers because OTHER units are a problem

Well, I've spent some time thinking about it and I think that you and sPzAbt653 are correct. I also think that I'm talking about issues that are distracting from the real #1 priority of making Elmer perform the best he can. Everything else is secondary to improving Elmer.

[sPzAbt653]

Still turn 161, 1-3-43. Off to the west edge of the Soviet line, Elmer has stopped attacking me and moved some of his units back to where the 1st and 2nd Panzer Armies are outflanking him. I guess a human Soviet player might lose nerve and withdraw to the east, maybe as far as the Don. But Elmer tends to follow Uncle Joe's guidelines. Actually I don't think either one of us is in a dangerous situation yet. He can afford to waste units while making me slowly conquer a huge area, while he is building strength in the Moscow area (he's also attacking me pretty heavily in the Cheropevets area farther north). For me, if I get overextended while not being able to move those infantry divisions from the west to help hold in the east, I'll be in a pickle barrel.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Turn 161. 1-3-43, progress in the Southern Offensive. 1st Panzer Army is moving south, generally rolling down the Soviet flank. Elmer has thrown up a screen of tank brigades but I can squeeze thru them fairly easy.

As the Panzer Division refits started a few turns ago, I noticed that my new units are full up with Panthers and IVh's. I think the Panthers did start production in January '43, but they weren't around in any great numbers unitl the summer, and the IVh's production started in 3-43. It's really difficult to get any proper mix of stuff in the equipment slots, but I took it upon myself to redo all these units so that they mostly use the IVf2's(aka g's) and IIIj's until the summer of '43. Then the refits occur and the Panthers and IVh's are in.

By summer there were about 400 Panthers produced, but only of the very break down prone D version.

As an idea for phasing out old equipment, one can bring in empty static units with lots of open slots and high replacement priority. Over time they tend to suck up a lot. One just has to look out that they don't become too big, since the strength numbers might start becoming weird.

[sPzAbt653]

These News Summary boxes usually pop up automatically at the beginning of a turn, but since around turn 115 they haven't. I can still click the Recent News Button to get them to pop up, but I wondered if anybody else has noticed this. Or maybe Elmer has sabotaged my 'auto-news' feature.

[sPzAbt653]

By summer there were about 400 Panthers produced, but only of the very break down prone D version.

Is there a 'break down prone' flag in the bio-ed? That would be a nice way of increasing Axis truck break downs.

On the old equipment/new equipment changeovers, it's just an issue of juggling the important first line with everything else that is going on. It's more accurate to have several changeovers thru out the scenario, but I think each one that is added makes the game more time consuming, as you have to plan your rotation of units out of the front. If one time works well enough, I'd be happy with that, I think.

[MechFO]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

By summer there were about 400 Panthers produced, but only of the very break down prone D version.

Is there a 'break down prone' flag in the bio-ed? That would be a nice way of increasing Axis truck break downs.

On the old equipment/new equipment changeovers, it's just an issue of juggling the important first line with everything else that is going on. It's more accurate to have several changeovers thru out the scenario, but I think each one that is added makes the game more time consuming, as you have to plan your rotation of units out of the front. If one time works well enough, I'd be happy with that, I think.

Why is the first line so important?

I've never worked with bioed so I don't know, however I seriously doubt it, since the practical effect isn't modeled in the TOAW combat system AFAIK. In practice tank losses in combat were disproportionately high IF one didn't hold the battleground long enough to recover the vehicles. In these cases even minor damage would lead to total losses. Otherwise even reatively heavily damaged vehicles could often be put back into service at some point. The problem with the early Panthers was the combination of unreliability and heavy weight. The first meant there were a lot of mobility kills, the second that recovering was very difficult due to a lack of strong enough recovery vehicles. Thus if left in a contested area they were often total write offs and had to be destroyed by their crew. Most of the Panthers at Kursk were lost this way. In general this phenomena explains a major chunk of the vehicle losses of the Soviets in the first half and of the Germans in the second half of the war.

However possesion of the contested hex isn't taken into account when computing losses for active defender equipment, thus there is no way to model this.