On the L2D2 Tabby

[Grotius]

In the Air War thread, I posted a couple questions about the L2D2 Tabby, which apparently does not appear in AE until 1944. More precisely, I gather now the Japanese player gets a small -rd factory at game start, but no Tabby transport chutai until 1944. I gather Elf is offline for a while, because he hasn't responded, so I thought I'd reformulate and expand upon my question here, as I've had time to give it more thought.

In the Air War thread, I linked (and posted a picture of) the US Strategic Bombing Survey study of Tabby production during WW2. (See posts 1139-40, page 38 of that thread.) The US Strategic Bombing Survey study on the Tabby plant said that orders for the Tabby were placed by the Navy, and apparently were for military (not civilian) use.

I imagine the AE team would concede that the Tabby was built in significant numbers as early as 1942 -- and that Showa's plant had the capacity to build even more. But I think the team would argue that it can't find evidence that the Tabby was used in organized transport chutai until 1944. E.g., that it was used to ferry generals and admirals around, or to support HQ operations more generally, but not as a cargo- or troop-transport craft in direct support of military ops. It's true that the Topsy, not the Tabby, seems to have been used for paratroop ops early in the war. And it's true that the Tabby did some ferrying of brass. But Tabbies were used in the New Guinea campaign and elsewhere before 1944. And they weren't just used in rear areas. I posted a photo of a Tabby being shot down by American aircraft in 1943, for example.

Unless the AE team is certain that the Tabby would never have been used in a supply- or troop-transport role, isn't it safer to include the aircraft in some form before 1944? Perhaps compromise and make available a couple chutai in 1942, more in 1943? I've tried to research the question, and I have trouble finding English-language sources that answer the question definitively one way or the other. I've come across Japanese sources, but while I can make out kana, my knowledge of kanji is severely limited. Is there someone on the AE team who reads Japanese who has researched this? If not, shouldn't the team err on the side of caution and give the player the chance to make his own choices on how to use Showa's production of several hundred Tabbies before 1944?

After all, if Japan did under-use its 400-plus Tabbies, isn't that more a question of doctrine than capability? Japan, like other powers, underestimated the utility of air transports at the start of the war. Shouldn't the player have the chance to correct that doctrinal error, given that Japan actually did produce the transports but apparently put them to poor use?

EDIT: Changed title from "Bring back the L2D2 Tabby!" to "On the L2D2 Tabby," since the Tabby is in fact in AE -- I didn't meant to imply it wasn't! The only question is when it should appear on the game map.

[CarnageINC]

I didn't read much about the AE air changes so I'm responding off the cuff, could rd efforts bring up the date?  Probably not, at the least there should be an option for the player to bring them into 'front line' service sooner.

[Long Lance]

It wouln't be unrealistic to have a compropmise: Tabby is available for production right from the beginning, so the player would be free to produce as many tabbies as he wants und use them to upgrade the non-Taby units.

[Yamato hugger]

Wouldnt be the first time a typo went into the database, but here it is as of last weeks build (I havent downloaded this weeks yet):

[m10bob]

Just my 2 cents here....I know a ton of research has been done on AE, and this includes the actual squadrons which had the actual planes..
The game is intentionally based on historic component, OOB-wise, and is for the most part only military application/assets..

Pan Am and China Air might be included because it is a known factor they were licensed to fulfill a military purpose, since before the war, but is what is being proposed another of those "what- if's".............?

[khyberbill]

What if Winnie had allowed the RAF to upgrade earlier? Shouldnt we decide when to upgrade, not Churchill? What if we decided that the P38 was a better plane than the P39? Shouldnt we decide to produce it in greater quantities earlier in the war? The trouble with "What Ifs" is that there are so many of them. Obviously, the AE team decided to try to reduce this as much as possible in order that we dont barrage them with ... what ifs? What if the radar team reporting the approaching planes on 12/7 had been believed? What if the AE development team stuck to historical record and brought out the Tabby squadrons when they appeared in actuality? Hmmm, I guess they did.

[Yamato hugger]

Other than the "at start" forces, this is the sum total of Japans transport reinforcements.



Note: The "red blob" says "Davao"

[2ndACR]

Pet Peeve of mine.......I cannot stand to be locked into decisions based on real life........Buy AE and then basically play to learn the interface until a mod comes out changing some things (like arrival dates). Same as stock.
 
 

[anarchyintheuk]

Maybe it's just semantics, but I wouldn't consider 20+ a/c in '41 and 80+ in '42 'significant numbers' in any way.

[Tophat1815]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Pet Peeve of mine.......I cannot stand to be locked into decisions based on real life........Buy AE and then basically play to learn the interface until a mod comes out changing some things (like arrival dates). Same as stock.

Agreed[&o]

[2ndACR]

Enough to equip 2 36 plane units..........enough counts. I prefer the, a/c entered serial production on this date and is available for use then.

Just because the Japanese high command were inept does not mean I have to be. Air transport can be the difference between victory and defeat in battles.

So the team can suspend OOB research for my version and just go ahead and let me get it.........there will be a mod along pretty quick, heck if the editor is that easy to use, I may do it myself.

[anarchyintheuk]

My pet peeve would be if one side was locked into decisions based on real life and the other isn't . . . . hmmm, wait a minute . . . .

[2ndACR]

Never said that.......when did the Hellcat enter serial production? I have no problems with it, or any other a/c.
 
I would prefer the Brits and Dutch to have the ability to upgrade from the get go. Need to keep a unit past it's withdrawl date? No problem, pay a PP cost.
 
I prefer as open a game as possible........just because someone in history did not do it, well no one else shouls be forced down that road either. Want the US to have a Japan first policy, okay.

[anarchyintheuk]

I know you didn't. I was just sarcastically stating mine. [;)]

[Grotius]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. One thing I love about this forum is that I learn something here every day.

Maybe it's just semantics, but I wouldn't consider 20+ a/c in '41 and 80+ in '42 'significant numbers' in any way.

Well, maybe it is semantics, but 87 (not 80) is more significant than zero, which is the number of Tabbies that appear on map in AE in 1942. (And 1943.)

It wouln't be unrealistic to have a compropmise: Tabby is available for production right from the beginning, so the player would be free to produce as many tabbies as he wants und use them to upgrade the non-Taby units.

Yes, that's one possible compromise. Although looking at YH's numbers, there's only one squadron of 27 Tinas to upgrade from. (Topsy is still IJA in AE, I gather?)

In fact, YH's numbers indicate that Japan only gets enough squadrons to fly a total of 72 Tabbies total for the entire war, when Showa Company alone produced 416 over the course of the war. (I'm still not clear on to what extent other factories also produced L2D2s and their variants.) And it seems ahistorical to me to require the player to "research" an aircraft when 22 were already built by Showa in 1941 (and one each in 1939 and 1940), in accordance with a license to make a Japanese version of the DC-3.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a WITP/AE fanboy, and I have boundless admiration for the AE team -- I can only guess at the gargantuan amount of time the team has put into research alone, never mind coding, art, testing, etc, all without pay. I appreciate that the team seeks historical accuracy above all. But as a historical matter, are we certain that Japan only ever used 72 Tabbies in a military support role? That implies that 344 other Tabbies (probably more) were dedicated solely to moving HQs and top brass around? Do we have Japanese-language sources to verify this? By all means, the game shouldn't overrepresent Japanese transport aircraft -- but neither should it underrepresent them.

[2ndACR]

Those Betty's are navy also, they too can be upgraded to Tabby's. I know that in Nikmod with PDU's on, once April 1942 arrives, every naval transport is a Tabby and if I combine army with navy I can airlift entire brigades in 2 days time (the 300AV brigades).
 
Hence the PDU option always chosen in my games.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR

Never said that.......when did the Hellcat enter serial production? I have no problems with it, or any other a/c.

I would prefer the Brits and Dutch to have the ability to upgrade from the get go. Need to keep a unit past it's withdrawl date? No problem, pay a PP cost.

I prefer as open a game as possible........just because someone in history did not do it, well no one else shouls be forced down that road either. Want the US to have a Japan first policy, okay.

You got one of your wishes in AE. The British and Dutch have no limits on when they can start upgrading (nobody else does either). Since each nationality has it's own pools of aircraft, there isn't much in the British and Dutch pools to upgrade to, though Hurricanes do start trickling into the British pool early on. I've managed to upgrade a few British units in January, 42.

Bill

[Tophat1815]

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

My pet peeve would be if one side was locked into decisions based on real life and the other isn't . . . . hmmm, wait a minute . . . .

nevermind............Unless you'd like a pbem game anarchyintheuk?

[veji1]

easiest thing to do will be to mod the Tabby availability date to a compromise such as 8/42...

[Yamato hugger]

You can bring in the C-5A if you want. In a mod [;)]