Forlorn Hopes: The Japanese Respond

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:16 pm

Dan is not happy over comments he has gotten in his AAR and has offered to show Nemo his turn files proving that his 4EB are only on 10% Naval Search. I told him that things were OK and I would simply learn to live with it. There were, after all, ONLY 23 Naval Search 4EB hits this day! He is very defensive and I thoroughly understand.

I will limit my email comments to a minimum so he feels better and so we can get on with the last ride of the Samurai!

Current turn:

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:15 pm

John,

These naval bombers are using the same search routines that you benefited from ( and benefit from ) when using naval search routines to kill Allied submarines.
 
I think that even if Canoerebel were using 100% naval search that that would be entirely within the rules of this game but it appears he isn't using anything close to that level. He is clear it is only 10% naval search.

OTOH even 10% of bombers on naval search will get a lot of hits if they are highly experienced and the APs and AKs aren't CAPed.
 
I don't think this is a crock of anything and I think that when the routines work against you you have to accept it as phlegmatically as you accepted the benefits when they worked in your favour and against Canoerebel.

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 6:00 pm

I have already stated that I accept what is happening and simply want to move the game forward.  Dan seems fixated on this and I am not concerned.  There is no House Rule against this and it has gone somewhat both ways.

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:07 pm

The 11th brings about big developments in India as the Offensive turns vertical as well as horizontal! A Sentai of 36 Topsy drop Paras on Hyderabad (1st Paras) and a Chutai of 12 Tina drop troops on Nagpur (2nd Para).

The laser-guided Liberator bombers manage to plant 41 bombs on Japanese AP/AK. Losses for today were 7 AP, 1 AO, and 2 AK.

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:20 pm

The American Fleet continues to stroll along past the Philippines and Ceylon. There are no strikes from it, no AF suppression, nada...

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:26 pm

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

John,

These naval bombers are using the same search routines that you benefited from ( and benefit from ) when using naval search routines to kill Allied submarines.

I think that even if Canoerebel were using 100% naval search that that would be entirely within the rules of this game but it appears he isn't using anything close to that level. He is clear it is only 10% naval search.

OTOH even 10% of bombers on naval search will get a lot of hits if they are highly experienced and the APs and AKs aren't CAPed.

I don't think this is a crock of anything and I think that when the routines work against you you have to accept it as phlegmatically as you accepted the benefits when they worked in your favour and against Canoerebel.

Nemo--I just re-read this posting and need to comment on one point. The shipping over Trivandrum were CAPed for 3 days by 30-50 Zero and 20 Rufes when it took 26, 33, and 53 hits on those days. NO Strikes came in only the Nav Search hits. There wasn't ANY point in even trying to CAP.

I pulled the Fighters and let the planes being uncrated from the AK take over. The last two turns have had anywhere from 8-14 Japanese fighters flying CAP and so I can understand the hits occurring at that point. Prior to that was BS!

And the commentary on LBA vs. SS isn't the same. It is my choice to place (say) 300 bombers on ASW Attack. It is--after all--a dedicated mission. Using 300 bombers on a dedicated mission to gain 1 hit every other day seems much more realistic then the Nav Search function.

ny59giants · Post by **ny59giants** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:55 pm

Prior to that was BS!

You and I have played this game long enough to know that highly experienced 4e bombers (over 75) will score very well when on Naval Search. Considering the bomb load of a B-24, then you should expect to get hit hard. This part of the game routine has been like this for some time. I have hit a Jap CV with it.

I often place squadrons/daitai on Naval Attack with 10 or 20% naval search to assist them in finding their targets. For some reason it seems to help even if patrol planes are searching at 80% from the same base.

Nemo121 · Post by **Nemo121** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:34 pm

CAP will intercept and degrade Naval Search missions. IF you had properly CAPed your AKs and APs you would have killed B-24s and suffered fewer hits.

Sorry John but just because you dislike a result doesn't make it BS.
 
As to naval search for subs. Well I would suggest that Canoerebel could say "It is my choice to put my B24s on naval strike with 10 to 20% search. It is - after all - a dedicated mission." I ALWAYS have all of my Betty Daitai on at least 10% naval search and in my current game against Damian - due to the distance to some of his shipping I have B-24s on 30 to 50% naval search ( in order to generate enough good spotting to generate strikes ). So, him using 10 to 20% naval search as part of his naval attack orders is perfectly reasonable.

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:14 pm

Got the Ballad of the Green Beret running in my head right now!

Moving on along.

33 Air Search Hits this turn.

The Kaigun is formed up and will move towards Addu tomorrow. Once close it will sprint past Ceylon heading for Soerabaja. Now that the entire US CV Fleet is nearing Saigon, it might be rather pleasurable to see about hitting the convoy lanes in the Pacific...just a thought...

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:22 pm

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

CAP will intercept and degrade Naval Search missions. IF you had properly CAPed your AKs and APs you would have killed B-24s and suffered fewer hits.

Sorry John but just because you dislike a result doesn't make it BS.

As to naval search for subs. Well I would suggest that Canoerebel could say "It is my choice to put my B24s on naval strike with 10 to 20% search. It is - after all - a dedicated mission." I ALWAYS have all of my Betty Daitai on at least 10% naval search and in my current game against Damian - due to the distance to some of his shipping I have B-24s on 30 to 50% naval search ( in order to generate enough good spotting to generate strikes ). So, him using 10 to 20% naval search as part of his naval attack orders is perfectly reasonable.

Those are good points; however, don't you think that this is really the standard Love/Hate argument regarding the power of 4EB? I agree that this sword cuts both ways but it is crazy to think that this is 'normal' every day for 7 days in a row now?

Don't get me wrong on one point though. I planned to lose EVERYTHING in this operation. If I get an AK, PC, and a rowboat back to Java then that is GREAT! My expectation--this is the key--was that I would lose these ships through standard attacks that would have bothered me regardless due to the power of 4EB.

What SHOULD be hitting my shipping in ever increasing numbers of Medium bombers (B-25 and B-26). That triggers a strange thought. Dan said he had NO B-26 in the entire Pacific right now. Is that for real? It surprised me when he said so.

The planes that are creaming my support shipping are aircraft that should be nailing the Ports, AF, and Ground units I have on the move. That is what they were built for right; however, due to how WitP models 4EB they are just as powerful hitting things on the ground as they are hitting things moving at sea.

Like I said the standard argument...

JeffroK · Post by **JeffroK** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:23 pm

Got the Ballad of the Green Beret running in my head right now!

What was the Dukes favourite phrase from that movie

Fall Back,  Fall Back

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:26 pm

When I read that I clearly heard his voice in my head!  [:D]

This is a DIFFERENT voice compared to the OTHER voices that constantly talk in my head.  Michael or Nemo could we schedule a session regarding this concern of voices?

Am getting ready to watch Rio Lobo right now...

JeffroK · Post by **JeffroK** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:27 pm

Watching Rio Bravo right now.

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:29 am

Just finished Rio Lobo and have the Special Extended Version of Star Trek: TMP. Am bored with no turn...

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 2:10 am

I didn't realize that I cannot spell the word Soldiers...

flaggelant · Post by **flaggelant** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:53 am

have you been able to find a stronghold, or moving formation of troops that dan will use to "stop" your assault?
or are you still roaming india without any opposition?

the US CV's might be en route to clash with yours? (cutting off the retreat to & out of DEA)
at least it would explain the low amount of sorties versus usefull targets
(i'm not reading dan's AAR)

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:46 pm

Good comments. There are 4 units in madras and then the two just arrived at Raipur. Have not spotted anything else other then static units. The way to Bombay is still open with only one unit present there.

The American Fleet is now one hex east of Saigon; however, the British Fleet is a hex east of the Northern tip of Sumatra. There are a few US CV with it that I know of. It is not my intention to get caught west of India. The Kaigun is 3 hexes west of Addu and will cruise tomorrow to a point just east of Addu and then will shift to normal movement and head for Soerabaja. If they try to cut me off then we shall fight with the entire Fleet concentrated and ready to go...

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:52 am

We got in two turns today and action is heating up around Formosa:

John 3rd · Post by **John 3rd** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:29 am

The action in India was definitely interesting again as we have ground and sea developments:

tocaff · Post by **tocaff** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:59 am

Why did you attack where you did in India and have you secured enough supplies to sustain your offensive there despite stiffening opposition?  Did the plan call for the KB to withdraw and leave so many ships unprotected trying to return to friendly waters?

I understand that the plan was a suicidal last ride, but I just wanted to pick your brain a bit.

Forlorn Hopes: The Japanese Respond

The Steamroller is Moving!

RE: BBs versus Barges

RE: BBs versus Barges

Armistice Day 1944

Philippines--Ceylon

RE: BBs versus Barges

RE: BBs versus Barges

RE: BBs versus Barges

"Fighting Sokldiers from the Sky..."

RE: BBs versus Barges

RE: "Fighting Sokldiers from the Sky..."

RE: "Fighting Sokldiers from the Sky..."

RE: "Fighting Sokldiers from the Sky..."

RE: "Fighting Soldiers from the Sky..."

RE: "Fighting Soldiers from the Sky..."

RE: "Fighting Soldiers from the Sky..."

The Steamroller is Moving!

Formosa Strait Action!

I was strolling through Mangalore...

RE: I was strolling through Mangalore...