Near misses

[witpqs]

Maybe you're aiming too high. Ask for a picture book! [:D]

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Maybe you're aiming too high. Ask for a picture book! [:D]

I'll just wait for the movie to come out. [:D]

[Gunner98]

Herwin

If I understand correctly, you are trying to improve the robotic brain (and indirectly AI), by setting up a system where your three types of behaviors interact and work off each other? For instance Goal = take Midway, Habitual = the doctrine, plans etc typical at the time, Reflexive = 3 CV sunk in one engagement what the F*** do I do now?

Yeah I think if you can crack that one, games in general will get better.

Bart

[bradfordkay]

In the meantime, AE continues on pace to be the most detailed and best representation of the Pacific War available that many of us will be able to play within our lifetimes. The vast majority of us will be quite thrilled with the product that HFP is preparing to release, and applaud them for their efforts to present us with a huge improvement on WITP.
[&o]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: herwin


Can you see the application to game AI?

Sorry I got up to the first sentence then fell asleep. Do you have an executive summary?

I'm proposing here to build a biologically-realistic AI. As you know, AI has turned out to be incredibly hard to do. True AI involves the ability to assess the current value of future actions and plans. The values used are either based on past experience or on predictions of future value using plans. In your brain, the value assessment process seems to take place in a funny area called the basal ganglia. That area is massively parallel and outputs a go/no-go signal to the rest of the brain. Planning is less well understood, but seems to take place in the prefrontal cortex--that area of the brain that doesn't come fully on-line until your twenties. I did my thesis on planning in bats, and I saw enough to tell me the planning process runs much faster than real time and can run in forward (from current situation to goal) or reverse (from goal to current situation).

Does that put you to sleep?

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Herwin

If I understand correctly, you are trying to improve the robotic brain (and indirectly AI), by setting up a system where your three types of behaviors interact and work off each other? For instance Goal = take Midway, Habitual = the doctrine, plans etc typical at the time, Reflexive = 3 CV sunk in one engagement what the F*** do I do now?

Yeah I think if you can crack that one, games in general will get better.

Bart

In so many words, yes.

I need to solve two problems--how to combine the values, and how to play out the plans (both forward and backwards in time). I think you need a brain to solve those problems well--traditional computers are overwhelmed by the processing costs. Of course, for a decent game, all you need is for the bear to dance--we know chess programmes now play better than most humans.

[Gunner98]

Good luck, just don't name it HAL [X(]
 
I can just see the discussion on AI in 5-10 years - more along the lines of dumbing it down so it isn't slamming us all back into the stone age [;)]
 
Suspect that there are quite a few applications which will be using your results before it reaches gaming however.  [font="times new roman"]Probably spells the end of Discovery Channel’s ‘Most dangerous jobs’ show.[/font]
 
 
Bart

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

I can just see the discussion on AI in 5-10 years - more along the lines of dumbing it down so it isn't slamming us all back into the stone age [;)]

Bart

Yeah but if the Cylon chicks are hot enough, who cares? [:D]

[EDIT: That was the basal ganglia talking!]

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: herwin


Can you see the application to game AI?

Sorry I got up to the first sentence then fell asleep. Do you have an executive summary?

I'm proposing here to build a biologically-realistic AI. As you know, AI has turned out to be incredibly hard to do. True AI involves the ability to assess the current value of future actions and plans. The values used are either based on past experience or on predictions of future value using plans. In your brain, the value assessment process seems to take place in a funny area called the basal ganglia. That area is massively parallel and outputs a go/no-go signal to the rest of the brain. Planning is less well understood, but seems to take place in the prefrontal cortex--that area of the brain that doesn't come fully on-line until your twenties. I did my thesis on planning in bats, and I saw enough to tell me the planning process runs much faster than real time and can run in forward (from current situation to goal) or reverse (from goal to current situation).

Does that put you to sleep?

Oh! So you're trying to improve gaming AI! Why didn't you say so before! [:D]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Are germs modeled in the game? I mean Halsey was sick during the Battle of Midway. Obviously this played a role in the decisions made there. Shouldn't the game model such incidents? After all there were maybe a dozen major sea battles in the war. One out of those dozen major sea battles had a key officer ill in it. That means 1/12 of the time key officers should be made unavailable to the player due to illness. That is a significant number and needs to be modeled!

EDIT: Next question is of course HOW should germs be modeled. Do we do a simple die roll to represent a 1/12 chance of illness or do we take into account factors such as how much of the time an admiral may be exposed to someone who has a contagious disease? From the latter we need to take into account how many of those people were exposed and then how many of the people exposed to the people exposed were exposed. This should modify the simple die roll in various ways. Then of course there is the chance of pneumonia which should be factored in as well. Spread of disease also needs to take into account the air circulation caused by flapping of a butterfly's wing in China which needs to be multiplied by the number of butterflies in the world at a given moment! [:D]

Ahhhh...germs vs a naval combat and damage model worthy of a WW2 game of the Pacific? Get real Gary. We have individual pilots, personal weapons, leaders etc but ships are crewless (aside from a skill factor) and have armoured paint. Not bitching really but I'm not going to make ridiclous comparisons either.[8|]

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: herwin




A near miss produced a hot gas bubble expanding at supersonic speed. It was the shock of that bubble hitting the hull plates that caused the damage. If the shock wave got beyond the hull, you hoped that the underwater protection system (UPS) prevented it from getting into whatever was behind the UPS, such as the magazine. (Note cruisers and smaller carriers lacked a UPS.) If the shock wave damaged the magazine, you prayed for flooding.

How often were ships actually sunk by near misses in the war? Especially from magazine explosions? I don't think it's a matter of what CAN happen but of how often DID it happen in reality. I assume the chances of a near miss translating into a magazine explosion would be relatively rare. Ships weren't just blowing up from magazine explosions left and right in the war, were they? And I believe WITP-AE factors in things like magazine explosions. Who is to say that some of those magazine explosions are not due to near misses?

Casualties to RN cruisers by enemy action 1939-1945:

21-shelling, 3 sunk
65-bombing, 6-7 sunk by near misses, 2-3 sunk by fire (9 total sunk)
10-mining, 1 sunk
30-torpedoing, 11 sunk
126 total casualties, 24 sunk

Mean time to repair a shelling casualty: 6-7 weeks
Mean time to repair a bombing casualty: 6-7 weeks
Mean time to repair a mining casualty: about 28 weeks

Mean time to repair a torpedoing casualty: about 40 weeks

I hope that helps.

Not really, need names and actual examples.

[Dili]

If indeed there have been a sizable quantity of Leaders that had health problems and empirically i am of opinion that is correct, why that situation should not be simulated if all other more pressing issues have been corrected?

[RevRick]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

My Dad's favorite motto is, "if you're not going to do it right, then don't do it at all." All I can ever think of in response is that if everyone followed my Dad's advice nothing would ever get done in the world. The world is full of less than perfect attempts at doing things. Granted criticism is needed to spur development but when the critics start disillusioning the doers, then the results can be counter-productive.

I think Teddy said it best ....see below.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910"

And then Robert Heinlein said it more directly, and more cynically...

"A "critic" is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased -- he hates all creative people equally."

Blunt old coot, he was...

[RevRick]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: herwin


Can you see the application to game AI?

Sorry I got up to the first sentence then fell asleep. Do you have an executive summary?

[X(][X(][X(][X(]
I think that WAS the executive summary!!!
[X(][X(][X(]

[Grotius]

"A "critic" is a man who creates nothing and thereby feels qualified to judge the work of creative men. There is logic in this; he is unbiased -- he hates all creative people equally."

I love that quotation. I'm tempted to put it in my sig.

[Dili]

Viva groupthinking then!...[:-]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Ahhhh...germs vs a naval combat and damage model worthy of a WW2 game of the Pacific? Get real Gary. We have individual pilots, personal weapons, leaders etc but ships are crewless (aside from a skill factor) and have armoured paint. Not bitching really but I'm not going to make ridiclous comparisons either.[8|]

It is my understanding that way, way back in the dim recesses of time individual pilots and various other detail-type goodies were added at the request of the community. When you specifically request something and then get it that item is not a legitimate wedge to use to criticize the design of the game.

[Howard Mitchell]

'Nobody ever put up a statue to a critic'
 
Atributed to Jean Sibelius [:)]

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Ahhhh...germs vs a naval combat and damage model worthy of a WW2 game of the Pacific? Get real Gary. We have individual pilots, personal weapons, leaders etc but ships are crewless (aside from a skill factor) and have armoured paint. Not bitching really but I'm not going to make ridiclous comparisons either.[8|]

It is my understanding that way, way back in the dim recesses of time individual pilots and various other detail-type goodies were added at the request of the community. When you specifically request something and then get it that item is not a legitimate wedge to use to criticize the design of the game.

Actually ships have always had captains so in reality...

In AE the crew matters as well. They help repair their home.

[witpqs]

I only said "pilots and various other detail-type goodies".