Strategic Map? Maps in General

[barbarossa2]

Is there a chance someone could post a copy of the strategic map in any detail here (or anywhere) so that we could use it for negotiations and other diplomacy?

Dimensions which would make the provence names readable would be wonderful. So, I am guessing over 1200 or so pixels wide.

Or are there copyright issues and do we need to make one ourselves?

Has anyone already made one themselves?

[Mus]

Ive just been loading a single player of the same scenario and referencing the map there.

[barbarossa2]

I came up with something last night. This version isn't QUITE done. But you will get the feel. The full version of this PhotoShop file is about 4000 pixels wide.

[timurlain]

I admire your work. Nice job !

[Erik Rutins]

Nicely done!

We're also going to have some separate images of the strategic map up in the Members' Club shortly.

[barbarossa2]

What's handy about the PhotoShop file is that you can click away and fill provences with color to show ownership (or proposed ownership) very easily. The region names are also extremely easy to see.

Again, the version above still needs a little work done. Like the Sea of Azov hasn't been colored to look like water yet I see.

While doing this map, I noticed the Austrian Empire holds all of Hungary as a Protectorate. I found this very interesting.

[Mr. Z]

In fact there are a few things I would've changed about the way we handled control of a few of the provinces on the map--and there will be some minor adjustments in the forthcoming patch. But yes, Hungary is a minor power, possessed by Austria (actually it is controlled, not protected--we use "possessions" in the manual to describe protectorates + conquered minor powers, as I think this helps clarify things.)

But nice job!

[barbarossa2]

I must say, my only real disappointment with the map is the absence of Swedish Pomerania. Even though it relatively small (the western half of Pomerania), you have given a full four provinces to Bohemia. And I think that the strategic significance of this provence really can't be overlooked IF you make Sweden a player in the game. And you have. I would love to see this change with a patch.

[Mr. Z]

Yes, I miss Swedish Pomerania, too [:)]  In fact I was just telling Eric about this!  We would just award all of Pomerania province to Sweden, even though that would give Hinterpommern to them as well, but the economic cost to Prussia would be too great.

I don't know if there's enough room to divide the province, and we're unlikely to do it in a patch very soon, but I agree it would be nice.

[barbarossa2]

Concerning Swedish Pomerania: It is unfortunate, because you really have taken Sweden's "Gibraltar" away from them. You mention the fact that there may not be enough room, however, you could redraw a couple of other borders to make it just big enough to appear (shrinking Mecklenburg a little perhaps)...or you could also give it a "box" like Gibraltar has (which is also very, very small).

Would it be possible to "redraw" the map? That is, to give Eastern Pomerania to Neumark and make Pomerania smaller, so it represents only the Swedish half? Then you would of course, increase the economic value of Neumark so that Prussia wouldn't be losing anything of economic value.

I do hope there will be a CoG:EE 2 and that you will include:

1. Treaties with minor nations
2. Swedish Pomerania
3. Redraw the map around Switzerland, as it is getting a bit unrealistic in my opinion.*
4. The ability to specifically indicate which nation someone will declare war on as part of any treaties (more specifics regarding treaties in general)

*If I would have divided Switzerland in two halves, then certainly a northwestern and southeastern half. The northern half is really not at all unlike southern Germany (I have been there several times and lived there). It would only be the southeastern half which is so difficult for supply. To make the whole of Switzerland like this is very unrealistic in my opinion. If any of your provences deserve this treatment, it would be Savoy and perhaps Tyrolia (I have visited both on several occasions). And then also this southeastern Switzerland. To penalize Switzerland in this manner, but not Savoy or Tyrolia, is a bit non-sensical (meant in the most humble and helpful way [&o]). Additionally you have really cut off a large chunk in the west of Switzerland around Geneva I think (though I can see that you used many space saving devices on the map, so I understand the map is more of an abstraction than a represenation of reality...still I would say Switzerland must be divided into north and south--not east and west).

And on a minor, purely aesthetic note: I would personally redraw the border of Luxemburg-Lorraine-Champagne. It makes it impossible to represent France as it was in 1792. And the whole frontier matter was settled by the middle of the 1700s in this area to give France its modern (and 1792) north eastern frontier.

[Mr. Z]

You mention the fact that there may not be enough room, however, you could redraw a couple of other borders to make it just big enough to appear (shrinking Mecklenburg a little perhaps)...or you could also give it a "box" like Gibraltar has (which is also very, very small).

It literally is a matter of calculating whether there's enough space in any province we make to make sure there's enough room inside the province to draw everything that's there most of the time. We had a problem with Mecklenburg in COG1--it was often too small to display all of the units inside of it. So we had to make it bigger. I can't say offhand whether dividing Pomerania would create enough room for two provinces even in principle. A box like Gibraltar is a solution, but we'd have to leave some room in the Baltic so again, we would have to look carefully at the space and see if everything would fit. Including testing, this could take up to a month to do, involving nearly every member of the team--changes to the map are not easy. Again, it's not a bad idea--if we knew we had the time, we would certainly consider it.

*If I would have divided Switzerland in two halves, then certainly a northwestern and southeastern half.

Dividing Switzerland was a tricky business, and I agree our solution wasn't perfect. But we also had other considerations to follow--like movement distances (we didn't want certain provinces to become "shortcuts" that make troop movement quicker along certain paths, regardless of terrain).

In fact I almost suggested to Eric that Bern province shouldn't have the more strict battle limits. We could consider removing them, but I would want to add another province in its place--I agree Tyrolia is a good candiate. I would disagree with Savoy (despite its appearance on the map--our province borders are a little "funny" here and there due to the need for a minimum size to each province--you are correct that they are abstract in some places), but would suggest Trent instead.

As for the French border, again, this is stylized--logically I think it is fine. The old Champagne province did border the Austrian Netherlands--our "Luxemburg" province should be taken to include some of what is now southern Belgium--including the Belgian province of Luxembourg, and parts of Liege and Namur as well (the latter of which does border the old Champagne province.)

[barbarossa2]

Well, I will go on record and say that Sweden needs Swedish Pomerania. I say go for the box which overlaps the western end of Pomerania.

Yes, Trent, Tyrolia, Salzburg, Zurich, and Corinthia (and in my opinion, Savoy, depending on what it really represents here) are all candidates for the "Alps" penalty.

And I will be happy to shut up about the French border if I get a promise on Swedish Pomerania for CoG:EE2! [&o]

Is the movement distance from one province to another always the same... namely, ONE? Or do you measure the distance between the "center" or "capitol" and use the distances between these points to do a much more accurate estimate of distance? Another way of asking is, is the game distance between Uppland and Karlskrona (two HUGE provences) the same as the game distance between Augsburg and Wurttemburg (two small provences)?

I do hope there is a calculation for the distance between a hypothetical "center point" or "capitol".

[barbarossa2]

Just playing a campaign game here and am looking at the map in and around Switzerland again. I see what you may have done with Savoy. As it appears in the game and on the map, it is some of the most rugged (and most beautiful) terrain in Europe. However, it seems that in order to fit Genoa on to the map with enough space, that you bumped all of the provences northwards a bit and because of that Savoy ended up in southern Switzerland... am I correct?

I have to admit, for someone who is relatively informed about geography and history, it is terribly distracting (but NOT a game killer certainly).

With Genoa being such a skinny place historically, I would turn Genoa into a box as well and then move these other provences south again (Bern and Savoy and Piedmont).

[Mr. Z]

However, it seems that in order to fit Genoa on to the map with enough space, that you bumped all of the provences northwards a bit and because of that Savoy ended up in southern Switzerland... am I correct?

That is correct--and yes, the area around Turin is actually a rather flat plain. I like the idea of giving Genoa a box as well--maybe someday.

As for movement, yes, each province has an approximate center, and units move from center to center--the unit's location in a province doesn't affect their movement rate--they get put a spot as close to the center as possible, though other units might already be taking up space.

Cities are not necessarily placed at the center of the province--they should be in a roughly correct geographical position. We are aware that some cities don't seem to be in their correct place, and hope to correct this where it happens in a patch.

[barbarossa2]

Or perhaps, the best solution would be to do the map of Europe without the satellite imagery (although I LOVE the look), so that an artist can draw everything so that the regions fit properly with the images of the mountains and such.

Anyhow, like I said in another posting, IMHO, this looks like a great game. It is certainly one of a kind with its easy multi player capabilities for the Napoleonic Era.

I for one am confused about the following "map" event... I sat outside of Turin for many turns waiting for my units to siege the city (which they didn't because my strength was too low). But during game play while I was entering my move, I saw the image posted below. When I clicked on end turn, then I was presented with the image in the immediately following post of mine. This was repeated 3 times or so (top image while entering my turn, bottom image as soon as I clicked on "end turn"). The general turns into an "army" flag. Why is there a difference?

BTW, I think it would also be useful to put a miniature flag over independent army units (like an inf. division) which is wandering about the country side. That way I could tell at a glance if anyone I didn't like was wandering around my country (as happened in my "Danish Invasion" post).

[barbarossa2]

This is the follow up image to the post above. Here it seems there is an army present. Above, it looks like just a lone general? I am confused. But not frustrated!

If it is a full fledged army (when the screenshots were taken, my scouts say there are roughly 7000 men in the provence...whether this includes the city or not), I don't know.

But this "turn calculation" image looks like there is an army fielded by Piedmont which isn't exactly small and has several generals. They have been there like this for a while, but we haven't fought a battle yet. In fact, I think this standoff has been going on for around 4 turns now (until I figured out I needed to boost my strength to get my generals to actually START a siege (which worked...duh! LOL)).

[barbarossa2]

And here, a few months after the defeat of his country, this general is still hanging around and swears allegiance to the country of Piedemont.

Why? I like flavor, but I am just wondering why.

[barbarossa2]

Another question on the map/game.

I have had a diplomat wooing the Poles for several turns now. I am the French. When I put the map on "Display Attitudes", it shows the level of preference which minor nations have for the different great powers IF I have a diplomat in a neighboring provence.

Here I see that the blue slice is by far and away the largest. But then, in the provences themselves, I see that the Prussian flag is displayed everywhere. So who do the Poles prefer? I thought that the flag displayed was a quick and dirty way to see who was leading with these pie charts.

[barbarossa2]

The more I look at the map, the more I wonder if the problem with Switzerland is in large part due to the fact that you made Piedmont two regions instead of one. [;)]

Why was it made two? If you made it one (since it is one country), you could slide Switzerland back into its actual location and Baden and Wurttemberg as well (as it is Savoy is smack dab on top of what is really southern Switzerland). You probably don't even need a box for Genoa (though you probably could do it and it would be a good idea).

This is definitly one thing that needs to be considered along with the definite inclusion of a "Swedish Pomerania" of some sort.

Anyway, I have to stress, I give CoG:EE 9/10, and think it's absolutely great to play and a blast.

How can I get on the "map" team for the next CoG?

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z

We would just award all of Pomerania province to Sweden, even though that would give Hinterpommern to them as well, but the economic cost to Prussia would be too great.

Bump up the values of a neighboring Prussian province to compensate.