Protectorate issues

[Mus]

In my current game, Path of Napoleon, Im having issues with Illyria. Illyria being conquered (or liberated?) is one of my requirements. At one point I had Venice and Illyria as a protectorate attached to Italia. Austria invaded Illyria and was able to one turn seige the province with about 30,000 troops (the ease of siege operations is a seperate issue), taking instantaneous control of the province.

After the war I am unable to demand they cede Illyria and while I was able to demand they liberate it, after they accepted the treaty Illyria wasnt actually liberated. I suspect this is because Illyria isnt an entity that can be turned into anything by itself... its identity depends on Venice.



Can some of these weird issues with relationships between multiple provinces in minor powers being "broken" which is a known issue from original COG be revisited/fixed in some way?

I see a few major issues with protectorates that need to be addressed:

1. Relationships between multi province minors being broken if 2 major powers somehow wind up controlling seperate halves of the minor power.

2. Protectorate provinces that are captured in the middle of a war should not become the absolute property of the conquering power if they subsequently surrender to the power that was the Protector. They should be considered occupied and whether or not they are kept should depend on the outcome of the war.

[barbarossa2]

Oh yes. If this is a problem with the coding, I would desperately like to see this fixed for the first patch.

Thanks

[Mr. Z]

[text removed to avoid confusion]

Can some of these weird issues with relationships between multiple provinces in minor powers being "broken" which is a known issue from original COG be revisited/fixed in some way?

Actually we have found much fewer issues with the relations between nations and their possessions in COG:EE, due to the new system I describe above. We spent a lot of time testing things--this is one of the few anomalies that have come up. [....]

1. Relationships between multi province minors being broken if 2 major powers somehow wind up controlling seperate halves of the minor power.

We have imposed this as a solution to the problem of "Who can liberate Bavaria? [etc.]" when two or more nations hold Bavarian provinces. I can sort of imagine designing two kinds of liberation: whole-country liberation, and individual-province liberation, but this would take a medium-sized code redesign. The current rules have the advantage of solving the problem cleanly.

[....]

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z

What actually happened was, Austria occupied Illyria. You should have seen your nation's border coloring in the interior of the province, inside of France's dotted-line border (which indicates its protectorate status). If you saw anything besides what I am describing, please tell us.

No they took complete control of Illyria. I no longer had any color on the region and it was solid Austrian. I attacked a couple turns later and took it back, at that point it was solid Austrian with the blue French occupation ring.

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z

Right, because you still possessed it (as a protectorate). But I believe they would have vacated it once the surrender took place...correct?

No they possessed it for some strange reason and I occupied it. I was then forced to vacate when they surrendered to me.

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z

I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen...if a province is occupied (not conquered), it is vacated whenever there is a surrender by either side.

Now, if you capture the capital province of a minor power, yes, you capture the province (and any other of its provinces that you occupy) outright, and that doesn't change upon surrender. Are you seeing behavior that's different from this?

In my experience, I have never seen a protectorate province get captured where it wasnt in instant control of the capturing power (solid color, not occupied). If you retake it at that point you are considered to be the occupier.

[Mr. Z]

No they took complete control of Illyria. I no longer had any color on the region and it was solid Austrian. I attacked a couple turns later and took it back, at that point it was solid Austrian with the blue French occupation ring.

What scenario was this? Was it 1805?

Was Illyria the capital of Venetia? (This can happen--capitals can on occasion move.)

Do you have a save file?

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Mr. Z

No they took complete control of Illyria. I no longer had any color on the region and it was solid Austrian. I attacked a couple turns later and took it back, at that point it was solid Austrian with the blue French occupation ring.

What scenario was this? Was it 1805?

Was Illyria the capital of Venetia? (This can happen--capitals can on occasion move.)

Do you have a save file?

I have a save file. 1805 Scenario, year is 1810. Illyria and Venetia were both protectorates attached to Italia. Luckily I saved because I was about halfway through a Total War on Prussia (found a couple issues with that I raised in another topic) when I had Austria and Russia declare war on Denmark which I protectorized and issued ultimatum in order to get my hands on their fleet, thus ending up at war with both of them.

[Mr. Z]

Well, post the file--we'll have a look at it.

[Mus]

Actually whats your email. I will send it to you there.

Unless Im missing an obvious way to upload the file without hosting it.

I could PM you the file, but the file type isnt supported and I thought if I changed it to a text file that could mess up the formatting.

[Franck]

Actually I have had the same problem with the game... Protectorate, no matter how big they are always become completely conquered by the ennemy once occupied for the first time. Against the CPU it's not that bad because he doesn't take advantage of that... But it's worst against a Human player (ie it's harsh for France in the 1805 scenario with all those protectorate and all the nation of Europe willing to kill him.) The other players can just try to siege 1 or 2 provinces from France and then surrender. To get back what he lost, France will have to expend all it's surrender point and the surrendering nation will get a big boost in Experience.

[ericbabe]

Protectorates can become conquered right away.

[Mus]

Sent you my files Eric.

I get why Austria took immediate control, thats the only way Ive ever seen it work.  What I didnt get was why I wasnt able to demand they cede it right back to me, and given that my only option was to demand they liberate, liberation didnt actually occur.

PS I owned Carnolia so I fulfilled the requirement of bordering the province you are demanding.

[Mr. Z]

[post deleted to avoid confusion]

[Hard Sarge]

No, you can take them one at a time, or take all of them by taking the Cap

[Mr. Z]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

No, you can take them one at a time, or take all of them by taking the Cap

[text deleted to avoid confusion]

If you capture the capital of an enemy protectorate, you do not conquer the entire country. You conquer the capital province, plus any other provinces you already occupy. But the enemy then conquers any remaining provinces they hold.

[Hard Sarge]

not trying to be smart or aruge, but when did this come about ?

to be honest, this is not what I am seeing or have been seeing, Ventieo acts different then the rest, and I seen something like this with the Province under it (French Protectorate, that the Turks took, but when I took it back, it came back to me)

I have never seen capturing the Cap making the rest of the provinces become enemy Conquers

(of course, I tend to move pretty fast, so I may be taking them before they get a chance to change status, for me to see)

I will keep an eye out for this, in the next game (or current if any multi Protectorates are left)

[Joram]

I think you both are talking about slightly different situations?  I think you are getting confused on an independant minor vs a protectorate?  An independant minor all becomes yours when you take the capital.  A multi-province protectorate always has to be conquered one province at a time?  Hmm, can't remember, now I gotta go test that, lol.

[Franck]

Z I have never seen it happens as you say it should.
Protectorate, single provinces ALWAYS become conquered and controled by the occupying force NO MATTER WHAT (in my games at least). I have had this happens in my two last war. First, in a war against France they conquered the papal state province north of Rome. Second, in my war against Turkey they conquered Rome, wich is part of the Papal States, and after the war with France I had liberated and joined the province north of Rome to papal states.

Both time the province became ennemy controled. This is pretty easy to duplicate. And you can easily do it by yourself in any games by setting 2 countries to human and look it up. It certainly DOES NOT seems to work the way Mr. Z indicate it sohuld work. I would GREATLY APPRECIATE if it did work this way. (actually it's my only real complaint about the game).

[Mr. Z]

[post deleted to avoid confusion]

[Hard Sarge]

That is the behavior for independent countries.

However, if a country is a protectorate of an enemy nation, then besieging a non-capital city will result in occupation of that province, not conquest.

It will result in the capture of that Province, always has and still does

If you capture the capital of an enemy protectorate, you do not conquer the entire country. You conquer the capital province, it is the same as a non Capital Province, you Capture it, but not the rest of the Minor plus any other provinces you already occupy. But the enemy then conquers any remaining provinces they hold. No, they remain Protectorates

[Franck]

Protectorate, single provinces ALWAYS

My mistake I erased the sentenced and I didn't rewrite it the right way. I meant to say protectorate, single provinces or not ALWAYS...

[blockquote]quote:

I have had this happens in my two last war. First, in a war against France they conquered the papal state province north of Rome. Second, in my war against Turkey they conquered Rome, wich is part of the Papal States, and after the war with France I had liberated and joined the province north of Rome to papal states.[/blockquote]
Yes, because the Papal States (and Tuscany, which I assume you're talking about) were independent.

No I'm talking about that province that is also part of papal state to the est of tuscany... On the estern part of the italian boot. right north from Naples. Anyway, this province IS part of the papal state. And it was conquered. UNfortunetely, I can't post pictures because I'm to dumb with pc... But it should be easy for anyone to reproduce... I have seen this happens with part of the protectorate formed by munich upper palatine and one more province... As prussia in war against france I managed to take control of 2 of the provinces from that minor (wich was a protectorate under France) without even taking Munich. and even tough France won the war I ended up with like +6 provinces while France could only reclaim 2 with it's surrender points.


Seriously. This really REALLY does not seem to work the way your are pretending it should. I'm understanding what your saying... But I never saw a single protectorate province NOT become conquered (controled or whatever) if there was a succesful siege.

I understand how you claim it does work. I have not noticed it work like that. And I have said I WOULD REALLY appreciate if it DID work like that.