Squad Leader Battles?

[rickier65]

I was wondering what folks thought about converting more Squad Leader scenarios to the PCK system. I've done a couple, and to be honest, this system is the best system I've seen for converting SL scenarios. I've tried this in some other games (The obvious ones being Squad Battles and CMBB). But Panzer Command is the first system where the conversions feel right to me.

Right now I'm researching actions for a campaign centering on the 3rd Pz Div, but that is pretty slow stuff. So while thats brewing, I wondered if there was interest in my redoing of any of the SL scenarios. I have the original Squad Leader, as well as Cross of Iron and Crescendo of Doom.

Thanks!
Rick

[Erik Rutins]

Just my two cents, but as someone who played SL and some ASL, I'm definitely interested in playing more of those conversions. I think they do work well in Panzer Command.

[benpark]

I've just given into my nostalgia about SL, and bought the ASL rulebook, "Beyond Valor", "Valor of the Guards" and "Yanks" (and looking for "Hollow Legions").

Since I'll probably never get around to playing these much, I'd definitely be interested in a PzC rewrite.

[Mad Russian]

One of the test scenarios I did was an ASL conversion. The map isn't right for it though. With the right maps I can make a PCK conversion in a single day. Then they just need playtesting. Balancing a scenario with PC is tougher than any other game system I've used before.

No set turns per battle, no tweaking most of the variables, like ammo loads etc, make PC tough to balance.

Good Hunting.

MR

[rickier65]

MR,

My thought is to actually recreate the map using the SL mapboards, and base the OOB on the SL OOB's. I have my notes somewhere on heights and scale. The one thing I would/will change is the game length. If I recal most SL games were actually pretty short.

Thanks
Rick

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
One of the test scenarios I did was an ASL conversion. The map isn't right for it though. With the right maps I can make a PCK conversion in a single day.

MR,

Well, if you got the time, I can take the ASL map you used in your test scenario and make a really good Pck out of it.

I'll need the name of the ASL scenario and the board layout. From this, I can make a basic map using Pck terrain images so you don't need any mods from the latest Map Maker ... This will allow anybody with Pck to play the scenario before having the next Pck patch. In the future (after the patch) I can convert the map using the latest mods, if you prefer a better look to it.

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Then they just need playtesting. Balancing a scenario with PC is tougher than any other game system I've used before.

No set turns per battle, no tweaking most of the variables, like ammo loads etc, make PC tough to balance.

Yeah, agreed.

One of the main problems with converting the ASL series to a Pck map is the LOS through woods. We've already discussed how Pck degrades LOS through woods whereas in ASL it blocks LOS all together. I have several techniques to recreate this effect but it all boils down to the scenario designer (you) when it comes to how you want the woods to be represented. As you said, it's the play testing that makes it tough.

Anyway .... Let me know.

Rob

EDIT : I started the Hill621 map last year for anyone wanting to recreate that scenario. You can see how easily the map converts, the only part of the conversion was the scale ... 3 ASL boards are bigger than 1km maps. This won't be a problem later when (if) Pck goes to 2km maps.

Here's the old Hill621 map link ... tm.asp?m=1938256

[Mad Russian]

I don't do straight conversions. My CM conversions used the SL/ASL scenarios as a starting point after I found that the history in MOST of them is wrong. Of course, we are miles down the road now in historical research capabilities and not all of them were wrong.

The maps are all worthless for historical gaming purposes. I go back and replace the old geometrics with actual terrain or at least a representation of the kind of terrain in that area. Please tell me you don't want to use the old SL/ASL boards when you can make maps with MM!![X(]

Depends on what you are looking to do.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

Hit quote instead of edit. Somebody could delete this post if they wanted to.

MR

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
The maps are all worthless for historical gaming purposes. I go back and replace the old geometrics with actual terrain or at least a representation of the kind of terrain in that area. Please tell me you don't want to use the old SL/ASL boards when you can make maps with MM!![X(]

I second that.
We have the capabilities to get the real landform. Why make copies of 20 year old geomorphic hex maps. If AH had MM they would have used it.[:)]

[rickier65]

Seems like strong feelings here. I think I can put you both on the side of not being too interested in seeing them recreated ( at least not as direct ports).

Thanks!
Rick

[Mad Russian]

The scenarios directly ported over...that's not for me. Redoing them accurately with the information available now...sure.

Good Hunting.

MR

[madorosh]

I did my share of ASL conversions into CM and the fact is - straight map conversions don't work. The 40 metre hexgrid does work in a board game because it was done with Design for Effect in mind. The effects in computer games are completely different. You have to throw away the map entirely in CM or PC:K and start from scratch. With Google Earth available, that isn't a hardship. Even if you can't get detailed satellite imagery, a good imagination is your friend. Even the geo board can be a starting point for realistically sculpting the map down. But doing it from scratch is better.

Ditto the orders of battle - first thing is to remove all the LMGs from the ASL order of battle. Each squad in ASL actually has an "inherent" LMG and so do the squads in CM or PCK. So you don't need to add "extra" ones. Then there are mortars, which ASL assigns based on some weird fractional system. It throws off the whole balance of support weapons, so the orders of battle in ASL need to be revisited and balanced when converting for the computer, too. Really, the scenario cards are just the roughest of guides.

[rickier65]

Michael,

Thanks for your input. Actually, the straight conversions work quite well in PCK, in fact in my opinion, they work much better for me in PCK than they did in CM ( I tried a couple in CM and gave up because I didn't get the SL feel in the maps).

Of course, if your objective is to recreate an historical battle, then perhaps not - but if your objective is to recreate a SL scenario - it works. The main thing I've seen that's needed is tweaking of the game length. Most SL scenarios were only 10 turns long - not long enough for PCK. Also some minor balancing with the OOB and with the Objective values for play balance. I also agree about the LMG - simply use the correct Infantry units in PCK and you have the inherent LMG.

I've tried doing this with Squad Battles, and Combat Mission. PCK is the closest I've come to getting the same satisfaction from the scenarios. I've started on Hill 621, but decided to read through the SL designers notes to refresh my memory

But I realize it's not everyone's cup of tea. And I'm concurrently doing research into the 3rd Pz Div operations so that I can do a proper Hisotrical campaign - and I plan to make it more historically accurate.

Thanks again -
Rick

[madorosh]

ORIGINAL: Rick

Michael,

Thanks for your input. Actually, the straight conversions work quite well in PCK, in fact in my opinion, they work much better for me in PCK than they did in CM ( I tried a couple in CM and gave up because I didn't get the SL feel in the maps).

Of course, if your objective is to recreate an historical battle, then perhaps not - but if your objective is to recreate a SL scenario - it works. The main thing I've seen that's needed is tweaking of the game length. Most SL scenarios were only 10 turns long - not long enough for PCK. Also some minor balancing with the OOB and with the Objective values for play balance. I also agree about the LMG - simply use the correct Infantry units in PCK and you have the inherent LMG.

I've tried doing this with Squad Battles, and Combat Mission. PCK is the closest I've come to getting the same satisfaction from the scenarios. I've started on Hill 621, but decided to read through the SL designers notes to refresh my memory

But I realize it's not everyone's cup of tea. And I'm concurrently doing research into the 3rd Pz Div operations so that I can do a proper Hisotrical campaign - and I plan to make it more historically accurate.

Thanks again -
Rick

I may have objected too strongly, as my experiences in scenario design are solely based on CM. I am actually glad to hear you have had more luck with PCK, and it makes sense given the board game focus that Mobius has talked about from time to time. I'll look forward with interest to more of your work as I do have a strong sentimental attachment to the SL material as do many of us, obviously. Hill 621 is a favourite of many - and I've sat through one or two CM versions that weren't horrible. If PCK does it better, we all win.

Mike