PM - over mountains or by sea?

[Oleg Mastruko]

I am playing as Jap against a competent human player.

Question is as follows: what do you find to be a better strategy for Japs, in order to capture PM:

A) Landing 1-2 fullsize infantry regiments at Buna, marching over Oven Stanley mtns. (or whatever they are called) and attacking PM.

B1) Seaborne invasion direct to PM hex.

B2) (Variant of the above) Seaborne invasion to beach hex next to PM, marching one hex to the east and attcking PM.

PM is NOT neutralised as LBA base (I see no way for Jap player to do so, anyway), but I have Gili, and relativelly solid transport fleet.

Also, what forces would you recommend for Jap in your favorite option above?

Personally, I am inclined towards the option... ummm, better to keep silent since my opponent might be lurking at these boards )

Oleg

[tanjman]

Oleg,

I would not even bother with the land route. By the time your units get to PM (getting bombed the whole way) they will be so worn out as to be useless. In the mean time the allies will be reinforcing PM with every available LCU. So the 2-3 regiments will not be enough even if the weren't worn out. You'll have to mount a major amphib op to take PM. With weeks of prep time bombarding the h*ll out of it to shut down it airfield. What ever you do it will not be easy.

Then again you might come up with some brilliant strategem to fake out your human opponent. Maybe use the 1st Para Bde?

[Oleg Mastruko]

Thanks to all those who replied. All the replies (on forum and via private messages) basically say "don't even think of an overland invasion".

Why is it then that I'm still more inclined to Kokoda trail solution?? OK, I am old TOAW "landser", with Zhukov/Guderian/Rommel/Monty mentality, still not so comfortable in this sea business, but anyway...

How do you guys conquer Wau, then (small inland base on NG)? Sea invasion here is out of question. I have had good succes against AI, sending a single SNLF infantry unit from Lae to march to Wau, putting all the Rabaul bombers to ground attack missions (target: Wau) for 4-6 days (they do get fatigued pretty quick, so I occasionally rest them) and attacking with said SNLF unit (Maizuru SNLF?) after that.

Maizuru SNLF and Wau defenders start with nearly same strength, but few days of bombardment wear defenders down to a point when SNLF guys overwhelm them...

That led me to think that maybe few regiments, of course with HQ support, AA units, etc. marching over Kokoda trail would be fine solution for PM, much less riskier than sending several Marus into allied controled beaches/sea/air/subs. Of course, prerequisites for such operation would include building up Buna (or Dobadura) base, providing the ground units with CAP umbrella while they march (from Lae, Buna, or even CVs), bombing the PM base etc.

One positive side effect may be that allied medium bombers (their perhaps most formidable asset) are occupied with attacking the infantry (and you wear them down with strong AA and CAP protection) and your bases and naval units are left alone.

As I said - seaborne invasions are always dicey (sub or two may ruin your day), while foot slogging is relatively sure thing

This is of course completely hypothetical, I never tried it...

BTW, in my game, in the last turn there was a sudden CV TFs duel, and both US CVs are sleeping with fishes, so I feel I may discuss my options more openly now

Oleg

[strollen]

Your plan for conquouring Wau is fine.

PM is a different story. While time is not on your side as the Japanese player in the long run, in the short run (I am assuming you are pretty early say first 60 days) time is probably.

I think (I failed to take PM against the AI the one game I tried) the key is to isolate and starve PM for a while. PM with 200+ planes and engineers consumes 10-15,000 supplies/month easily. It is relatively easy if you hold Gili to prevent the allies from supplying PM or at least make it costly to supply the place. Once you can get PM to below 1 months supplies the effectiveness of the base is reduced by at least 25% (less planes fly). So I would first establish a large airbase in either Gili or Lae (or both) with all of your excess Vals and Kates and use them to sink his resupply transports. Bombardment and raids from Rabaul are also need to actually eliminate the supply (each supply hit removes 10% of the bases supply.)

I see three problems with the overland attack.
1. You telegraph the attack since it will take more than month to march across the Owen Stanley mountains.
2. Your troops will be heavily fatigue and if attacked highly disrupted and hence in no condition to fight.
3. Buna is a lousy base to conduct an attack from (small port and airfield SPS).

An invasion can easily be disguised as simply a large resupply of Gili Gili, it is only when you round the point that the US player will know what is up and than it will be do late.

[motaman]

Oleg, on an unrelated issue I remember visiting, and using information from, your site for TOAW a while ago. Good to see ya.

[Oleg Mastruko]

But... allied player has like, brigade or two of Australian infantry in PM hex. Way I see it there's NO WAY for Japs to land anything in the very first turn of invasion, that would survive immediate and direct attack by Ozzies (remember, I am talking about competent human allied player).

So, even assuming all my transports survive, and reach the PM beaches, they manage to land, what?, 300 troops in the first wave? All the allied player has to do then is order shock attack to every infantry unit in PM and the first wave is going to be slaughetered, then it's all over in the next turn...

So, assuming I dropped my overland Kokoda trail strategy, I still think it would be wiser to land in the beach hex next to PM (west of it), and march one hex east, no?

Oleg

[strollen]

Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko


So, assuming I dropped my overland Kokoda trail strategy, I still think it would be wiser to land in the beach hex next to PM (west of it), and march one hex east, no?

Oleg

Tough call on that..
If you have a lot (20+) of small transports and you time your invasion so you end your turn only hex or two from PM. Than you will have almost 2 full days to unload before being attacked. If you also have ground attacked one of the 2 brigades (most scenarios I think PM only has one real brigade and aux units) than the shock attack will be survivable. Even a 2-1 attack won't be too bad.

The land one hex and march is safer, but your troops will be fatigued and they will have plenty of time to airlift and/or fast transport reinforcements.

Lets put it this way, I doubt anybody but the designers have a foolproof strategy for taking PM, much less against a human

[Q-Ball]

One point on the Kokoda Trail route; yes, it's true you can pound any units moving on the trail for many days before they reach their destination, but that's only if you see them first. Unless you are looking for troops on the trail, you won't see them until they are in the same hex as your unit. Same goes for the enemy. All those Navsearch assets won't find them, because they are looking over the water. The only way to spot those units early is to fly recon flights over the trail (the AI does not do this, and most humans won't for long periods), or send a unit up the trail to scout.

[Huskalator]

I am currently in a PBEM game as the Japs and I am now invadeing PM via the adjacent beach hex. I'll be able to tell you all how it goes by the end of the week.

[Huskalator]

Ok

The invasion went very badly, but heres a few things I learned.

-You must neutralize the enemy CV force before you try anything toward PM. This was my biggest mistake. I brought my CV force to protect the transports and got ambushed by the enemy's combined LBA and carrier assets. I lost A LOT of ships.

-The beach next to PM seems like the way to go. Just land your half of your intended invasion force though. March them to PM, they will be tired, thats when you move the rest of your transports and land on the PM hex. The rest of your force will be fresh.

-You don't need a whole lot of CAP to protect the transports. I followed my transports with my CV TF. This was overkill and needlessly exposed my carriers. I would say no more than 3-4 zero groups on LCAP at a time. Rotate them as necessary.

[Ron Saueracker]

I prefer the B2 option of landing next to PM. Send most of your LCU to invade PM and send the naval garrison units on Fast transport TF to take Buna and Gili Gili immediately to knock allied player off balance. You can take Lunga and Tulagi simultaneously.

Meanwhile, you've formed tour CVs into a AC TF and sent them to Rabaul. The Rabaul Based aircraft and the carrier fighters make short work of PM air.

The big thing here is to keep the 7th Aus Div from reinforcing PM from Brisbane. Nells do a good job based at Lae as APs holed with torpedo hits tend to allow Aussie troops to drown. Then just waltz your Matilda right into PM hex and rape and pillage away.

If Lex and Yorktown show up, even better. They have few fighters so the are vulnerable this early.

[dpstafford]

Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
The big thing here is to keep the 7th Aus Div from reinforcing PM from Brisbane. Nells do a good job based at Lae as APs holed with torpedo hits tend to allow Aussie troops to drown. Then just waltz your Matilda right into PM hex and rape and pillage away.

You haven't actually tried that against a human opponent have you. Didn't think so. I usually airlift the 7th Aussie into PM or Buna long before the Japs have finished eating their breakfast.

[boomboom]

lba from Austrila