Modern Wars: Volume I - sneak peek.

[1925frank]

When I played Divided Ground, one of the things that struck me was some sort of infantry platoon in a 1973 scenario that could shoot some sort of anti-tank device maybe 20 hexes with devestating effect.  If these anti-tank units got off a shot, there were kills virtually every time that I remember.   
 
In that scenario I'm thinking about, the Israelis approach the Suez Canal in 1973 with a company of tanks, and the Egyptians are waiting with these anti-tank units, among other units.  It was exceptionally hard to even get within soft-target range of these Egyptian anti-tank units without getting tanks destroyed first.
 
I was never computer smart enough to install the Vietnam version, but my impression from reading the posts was that the Vietnam version is what kept Divided Ground alive moreso than the Arab-Israeli conflicts of 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973.  Martin Crevald (I may have his name mangled) wrote a book covering all four conflicts. 
 
 

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

When I played Divided Ground, one of the things that struck me was some sort of infantry platoon in a 1973 scenario that could shoot some sort of anti-tank device maybe 20 hexes with devestating effect.  If these anti-tank units got off a shot, there were kills virtually every time that I remember.   

In that scenario I'm thinking about, the Israelis approach the Suez Canal in 1973 with a company of tanks, and the Egyptians are waiting with these anti-tank units, among other units.  It was exceptionally hard to even get within soft-target range of these Egyptian anti-tank units without getting tanks destroyed first.

Crisis of Overconfidence is the scenario you're refering to.

The Sagger missiles are what you were encountering, much the same as the Israeli's did during the counterattacks (to relieve the Bar-lev strongpoints)in the first days of the war. Lessons were learned and tactics were altered to help minimize the effect from the Egyptian Sagger/RPG anti-tank teams.

That particular scenario has been scrapped, but a new version will be available for those who enjoy the punishment.

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
I was never computer smart enough to install the Vietnam version, but my impression from reading the posts was that the Vietnam version is what kept Divided Ground alive moreso than the Arab-Israeli conflicts of 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973.  Martin Crevald (I may have his name mangled) wrote a book covering all four conflicts. 

I have to agree, Vietnam did keep DG alive all these years.

I am hoping with all the work the BETA Brigade and Campaign Series Legion are doing on the Middle East Conflicts, there will be a renewed interest in the system. The Middle East Conflicts is not just limited to the wars of 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. I am truly excited about this offering.

Jason Petho

[1925frank]

After reading Crevald's book, I too thought the Arab-Israeli conflicts offered a great deal. 
 
The 1948 conflict required a lot of improvisation and pulling together of diverse weaponry, some of it leftovers from the Second World War.  Crevald discusses a number of Israeli paramilitary organizations that existed.  A lot of the troops on both sides of the conflict were poorly trained.
 
For people who like tank battles, the subsequent conflicts are gold mines.  I don't think Vietnam offered tank battles on the same scale or with the same diversity, although I could be wrong.
 
I also remember the tanks and planes were exceptionally diverse, with Soviet, British, French, and American models. 
 
The helicopter transports added a whole new dimension to troop movement and tactics.
 
The RPGs radically alter tank tactics.  I was stunned to see anti-tank weaponry that effective from that range, and the units firing the anti-tank weapons were small and numerous. 
 
Lack of familiarity with the Arab-Israeli conflicts might have been the biggest impediment to Divided Ground.  I'm assuming the majority of the people buying the game were far more familiar with the Vietnam conflict, and the tanks and planes and whatever else was there in Divided Ground was easy to incorporate into the Vietnam conflict.

[TAIL GUNNER]

Where does the Korean War fit into all this?

Mike already did a mod....will it be implemented in this game?

ChadG

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: Juggalo

Where does the Korean War fit into all this?

Mike already did a mod....will it be implemented in this game?

ChadG

That will be included in Modern Wars: Volume II along with NATO vs Warsaw Pact

Jason Petho

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

After reading Crevald's book, I too thought the Arab-Israeli conflicts offered a great deal. 

The 1948 conflict required a lot of improvisation and pulling together of diverse weaponry, some of it leftovers from the Second World War.  Crevald discusses a number of Israeli paramilitary organizations that existed.  A lot of the troops on both sides of the conflict were poorly trained.

For people who like tank battles, the subsequent conflicts are gold mines.  I don't think Vietnam offered tank battles on the same scale or with the same diversity, although I could be wrong.

I also remember the tanks and planes were exceptionally diverse, with Soviet, British, French, and American models. 

The helicopter transports added a whole new dimension to troop movement and tactics.

The RPGs radically alter tank tactics.  I was stunned to see anti-tank weaponry that effective from that range, and the units firing the anti-tank weapons were small and numerous. 

Agreed on all counts.

With all the reading and research I have been doing for this, I am surprised by the amount of interesting scenarios that can and will be depicted. There is an abundance of scenario type and a variety of challenges which make the Middle East component rather appealing, especially for those familiar with the current Campaign Series.

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
Lack of familiarity with the Arab-Israeli conflicts might have been the biggest impediment to Divided Ground.  I'm assuming the majority of the people buying the game were far more familiar with the Vietnam conflict, and the tanks and planes and whatever else was there in Divided Ground was easy to incorporate into the Vietnam conflict.

You are correct... let's hoping this release helps in changing that!

Jason Petho

[Dumnorix]

Modern Wars: Volume I is the Middle East Conflicts (ex-Divided Ground; although completely redone, most of the original scenarios have been scrapped) and Vietnam.

Two games on the one disc.

And we are to already again pay for it? I have meanwhile all CS-versions in English and German, also DG. Why I am already again to pay, for something which I already have.

Und wir sollen dafür schon wieder zahlen ? Ich habe mittlerweile alle CS-Versionen in englisch und deutsch, auch DG. Warum soll ich schon wieder zahlen, für etwas das ich schon habe.

H.Balck (GRANDMASTER OF MODERN WARS IN EUROPE)

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: Dumnorix

And we are to already again pay for it? I have meanwhile all CS-versions in English and German, also DG. Why I am already again to pay, for something which I already have.

The existing, unsupported Divided Ground and the Modern Wars volumes are apples and oranges.

Jason Petho

[1925frank]

The book I read is "The Sword and the Olive:  A Critical History of the Israeli Defense Force" by Martin Van Creveld.  I bought it precisely because I had Divided Ground and realized I knew nothing about the conflicts other than they had occurred.  I believe it starts out with Israeli paramilitary groups from the 1920s, and it covers all the conflicts, including the Lebanese events in 1982 if I'm not mistaken.  Because it covers all the conflicts, it doesn't cover any one in particular in great depth, but it does provide a nice overview.

Edit: For anyone who likes tank battles, Divided Ground will be a super addition. Not all of the tank battles were in the desert. I think Syria and Israel engaged in a massive tank battle in 1967 arouind the Golan Heights, which I don't think of as desert, but I could be wrong. It's been a while since I read the book.

[Legionaer]

Hi 1925frank,

two very good and high qualifized books are:

Arabs at War, Military Effectiveness 48-91 from Kenneth M. Pollack and
The Arab-Israeli Wars, War and Peace in the middle East from Chaim Herzog.

Important to understand this modern wars and their results. It explains a few points why the arab armies with their good and modern weapons lost the conflicts.

And for our modern war games: A lot of work should solve some of the "problems"!

Stefan

[V22 Osprey]

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

One just needs a few Hind's!

Jason Petho

But then your Hind's will be be roasted by the west's super advanced airforce.

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

One just needs a few Hind's!

Jason Petho

But then your Hind's will be be roasted by the west's super advanced airforce.

Unfortunately, the west's superior airforce has to break through the notorious Soviet anti-aircraft defence first.

Jason Petho

[V22 Osprey]

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

One just needs a few Hind's!

Jason Petho

But then your Hind's will be be roasted by the west's super advanced airforce.

Unfortunately, the west's superior airforce has to break through the notorious Soviet anti-aircraft defence first.

Jason Petho

Yea, you have to give them that, their Anti Aircraft is lengendary.(especially after they shot down an american U2 spy plane)

[Geomitrak]

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

Jason, is it feasible to include the ability to sap ? By that I mean for units to dig a trench towards an enemy and so advance along it ?

It would mean units could alter the concealment rating in a hex adjacent to them, before moving into it.

Only limited unit strength points could benefit from it until the hex was converted from a sapped hex to one with full trenches.

Is it possible do you think ? My signature indicates why I am interested in the possibity, of course. [;)]

Regards

Paul

Jason, any thoughts on this ? Is it possible, or is there some other way sapping can be modeled ?

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

Jason, is it feasible to include the ability to sap ? By that I mean for units to dig a trench towards an enemy and so advance along it ?

It would mean units could alter the concealment rating in a hex adjacent to them, before moving into it.

Only limited unit strength points could benefit from it until the hex was converted from a sapped hex to one with full trenches.

Is it possible do you think ? My signature indicates why I am interested in the possibity, of course. [;)]

Regards

Paul

Jason, any thoughts on this ? Is it possible, or is there some other way sapping can be modeled ?

Unfortunately, I don't think it is possible?

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head would be the use of commando type units that can move without being seen. Or the use of smoke.

Jason Petho

[dudalb_slith]

They were pretty weak, but ,out of curiosity will original scenarios for DG load into Modern Battles?

[dudalb_slith]

ORIGINAL: Dumnorix

Modern Wars: Volume I is the Middle East Conflicts (ex-Divided Ground; although completely redone, most of the original scenarios have been scrapped) and Vietnam.

Two games on the one disc.

And we are to already again pay for it? I have meanwhile all CS-versions in English and German, also DG. Why I am already again to pay, for something which I already have.

Und wir sollen dafür schon wieder zahlen ? Ich habe mittlerweile alle CS-Versionen in englisch und deutsch, auch DG. Warum soll ich schon wieder zahlen, für etwas das ich schon habe.

H.Balck (GRANDMASTER OF MODERN WARS IN EUROPE)

A. You don't have to buy it. No one will take a way your copy of DG.
B. DG was a good idea ruined by a lot of bugs and weak scenario design.'
C. They will be a lot of new scenarios on the mIdeast, and I understand it will not just cover the Arab Isareali wars.
D.The Vietnam section of the game will be completly redone aslo, although the mod was pretty good.
E. They will be fully supported.

[/quote]

[dudalb_slith]

It might be too soon, but a possible list of scenarios would be fun to see.

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: dudalb

They were pretty weak, but ,out of curiosity will original scenarios for DG load into Modern Battles?

In short, no.

The primary countries are being rebuilt from the platoon file up, meaning that existing scenarios will not be compatible with the new release.

Jason Petho

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: dudalb

It might be too soon, but a possible list of scenarios would be fun to see.

Once we are getting close to release, I will offer up a list of scenarios and their descriptions.

Jason Petho