Price drop before BFTB release?

[TinyPirate]

With BFTB being released this year I know a few people holding off buying COTA. Why doesn't someone consider dropping the price? It would stimulate sales of BFTB and it would get more sales of COTA. People can't justify a full-price for a game that has been out a while.

Also, I should reference Gabe from Valve/Steam here who pointed out that during one of their promotions a 70% drop in price resulted in a 1350% increase in sales, or somesuch.

I want to play these guys and they aren't going to buy at this rate :/

[TinyPirate]

I've had a look around, and blogged about it. It seems only (?) Matrix Games like to keep 6 year old games at their full price (HTTR). Panther, I love you guys, Matrix, not so much.

[Hartford688]

People can't justify a full-price for a game that has been out a while.

Why not? Did the game get worse? Did someone publish something better?

I've had a look around, and blogged about it. It seems only (?) Matrix Games like to keep 6 year old games at their full price (HTTR). Panther, I love you guys, Matrix, not so much.

Try HPS. Plenty of other niche publishers keep prices up...COTA is only 3 years old (barely that). Steel Beasts Pro PE is much the same age (2006) and still selling at $125. It ain't just Matrix Games. If it is what you really want, it is worth it, if it isn't, don't buy it.

[Lieste]

But SB ProPE is available today at the same $125 as when it was first released, and that includes all the usual free patches, plus the paid update... and I'd argue that it could be worth much more, but isn't

And yes, someone did publish something better - it was Panther/Matrix with COTA and (soon?) BFTB, but the new features these bring will not be made available to earlier titles - so now HTTR is more limited, compared to the current AA/CO engine. If the old engines are still being improved or patched, then it is absolutely reasonable to charge full price indefinately - but once they are not actively supported? How long should they still be full price but limited, compared to their newer brethren?

Essentially HTTR is less capable than COTA, and is due to be further improved upon by BFTB - is it reasonable to charge full price for both after the more capable BFTB is released?
Perhaps it is? - I think that the AA engine is worth a bit more than the standard rate... I'm still playing RDOA almost a decade after I first got it... And I'd happily pay full 'normal' price to get it again tomorrow - but I wouldn't go as far as the Matrix price as it is somewhat more limited.

As both HTTR and COTA are relatively expensive, and BFTB looks more capable and 'complete' and there is some prospect of further enhancements I am actually holding off any purchase till I see how BFTB is received, when I'll be able to select my preferred theatre (currently COTA) and feature set (currently BFTB) - but I will only be buying one - for now.

[Hartford688]

ORIGINAL: Lieste

But SB ProPE is available today at the same $125 as when it was first released, and that includes all the usual free patches, plus the paid update... and I'd argue that it could be worth much more, but isn't

I do not deny it...I've ponied up my $25 for the upgrade. Well worth the money if you are into modern AFVs.

And yes, someone did publish something better - it was Panther/Matrix with COTA and (soon?) BFTB, but the new features these bring will not be made available to earlier titles - so now HTTR is more limited, compared to the current AA/CO engine. If the old engines are still being improved or patched, then it is absolutely reasonable to charge full price indefinately - but once they are not actively supported? How long should they still be full price but limited, compared to their newer brethren?

All true, but the post I was answering did not refer to HTTR, but to COTA. And at this point it is the latest iteration.

[TinyPirate]

To me it's about economics and the developers getting as much cash as they can.

For every person who thinks "Wow, this game is my dream game, here's your $50us" I bet there are a dozen or more who think "well, I like the odd wargame, but without a demo, and with a new release coming up, I'm not going to spend more than $20us".

I don't know this to be true. But Steam's stats would suggest I'm correct.

It amuses me that Matrix don't get it, but I can't say I'm surprised.

This isn't about Panther so much, I don't know how much control they have, but I do want them to get a lot of cash. If they chucked out HTTR and COTA for, say, $25 before HTTR came out I personally know a few people who would buy it. Those same people will not be giving Panther any money until BFTB.

[GShock]

I think the best deal will come when BFTB is released. Then probably (not certainly) httr and cota will have a drop and there are a few examples of sequel being sold and pre-sequel being discounted here.
It should be definitely a must, ethically and commercially to offer a discount to those who own cota when purchasing bftb.

Having said that, with or without discount, if i find some time to breathe, I'll definitely buy bftb at any price. [:)]

[Hartford688]

Well I guess we will just disagree on the pricing of older titles...depends on your view of the elasticity of demand for this type of software. I do not doubt that Steam sees one kind of elasticity, not clear that it is the same for Matrix or Panther. Given the niche market, I suspect that the majority of people who want a title are willing to pay the asking price (given the limited supply of specialist wargames) whereas for Steam many of its titles can appeal to a huge market with a price drop. Typically the big titles may also have recovered all costs on initial pricing. But I am guessing.

I seem to remember from a year or so ago that it was Panther that raised the COTA price, not Matrix. Reason was the slump in the USD:AUD FX rate. Their revenue in AUD was falling away. Maybe I recollect this wrongly.

Not sure why Panther have an ethical must to offer discounts to buyers of BFTB to COTA owners. What drives this? Three years apart, different game. Nothing defective about the earlier game. I realise that this is sometimes done (antivirus updates, Panzer Command etc) but that is a commercial call. Nobody offered me a discount on Total War:Empire, even though I have TW:Medieval. But I do not think CA unethical. Mind you, I still did not buy it.[;)]

Seems Panther/Matrix are faced with a bind - bring out a new game, and then need to give a discount on the old game, then a further discount on new game for buyers of the earlier...lose/lose?



Apologies, not trying to argue for the sake of it. My concern is that Panther get their revenue driven down every which way. In these hard times that puts a lot of pressure on a company...maybe they should save time and costs and just concentrate on government contracts? I for one do not want to see them head that way - I like their Airborne Assault games too much.

But I assume we all (on this thread, plus Panther and Matrix) feel that way, just disagree on which approach works best for them. And I suspect Panther & Matrix have the best info to determine that.

[Zorchi]

@Hartford
Regarding gov. contracts
Well for all the money spent by armies on different contracts and such (alot of them useless serving only their own purpose or pockets of its patrons)... I just don't get it how Panther isn't swamped in contracts for sim making that would actually contribute to better commandig officers 'cadre'. This would meant that public editions of AA would become secondary objective of the company, BUT in the process we would get improved editor, engine, broader time span tha can be modeled... music to my ears.
But no, I gues army contracts are like any other public contracts. Party colours and the colour of green is all that matters. Not ingenuity and creativity...

Regarding price:
When BFTB comes out, the price will probably be lowered. But until that moment there is no need for a lower price. As was said already, nothing better was issued in the meantime so the price should stay the same. But for all of you who are arguing against the current price policy. Durign the winter season there was a few months that COTA was for sale for 30EUR (Matrix holiday discount). If you were really that keen on buying COTA and were waiting for a price drop, you probably wouldn't have missed that opportunity, especially since it was made during the holiday shopping season when peole with the smallest intent to buy sth. are poised to at least check the prices.

[GShock]

Zorchi is right, there's often major discounts @Matrix during holidays...point is ethical unethical...$ or Euro, what matters is to sell and sell as much as u can for profit (not for loss).

I think it's how it really works, COTA and BFTB are not that different in concept...there's a few addenda and new scenarios but design is the same. It's like the natural evolution from HTTR going through COTA and on to BFTB so it will look appealing to those who already own COTA to see a good price. Call it prize to those who followed the company steps, call it consolidation of present core customer base. To some extent, a lot of COTA customers might think it wise to wait till bftb has been polished and patched enough, then catch the opportunity to buy bftb when Xmas holiday or some other discount kicks in...then of course offering bftb to a lower price makes sense because panther's revenue will be higher in the first period.

Well what do we know...market analysts and major salesmen companies are at work on these subject everyday for every company of any size all over the world. Whatever their choice, Panther is gonna make it work right and honest for everyone.

As of Empire TW. I am one of the original betas of STW and been through all process from 1.0 until the release of M2TW where I myself and all other betas were not given free copies of the new game and that's how it ended that after buying STW (and afterwards becoming a beta) that was my last title with CA and not only for me of course but for all of us. If this is not unethical i wouldn't know how else to call it.

Luckily for the company lots of peeps are more interested in 3d models and modding than in real gameplay. The real issue with CA is that with such poor AI and the (i admit near to impossible to develop) lack of a multiplayer campaign really don't call for a real improvement in the gameplay itself from STW to ETW.
Still, hey, so far so good, if it pays why not carrying on this way.... If in order to have a challenge u must get a mod that handicaps you well...taste is taste.

Still steam also offers many discounts and that's true for all its games, including CA products (i do hope Panther will not deal with Steam because of the modding problems and patch delays this gives). Another thing we haven't considered is the fact that publishers who buy bulk straight from developers can later on sell them at any price they like. In the long run, all games get discounts and, as i said, I'm gonna buy bftb anyway, at any price...provided i find time to play it.

Essentially, COTA is the only game i really play and enjoy doing it...the rest, is only playtest...sometimes from morning to night and that's probably the main reason why i am not personally concerned about lack of discounts. Sure, i would love to see COTA retrofitted with bftb "discoveries" but that's just out of curiosity in the specific COTA scenarios because i'll likely be playing bftb when it comes out. Who knows...maybe in the future. [8D]

[TinyPirate]

Steam is loaded with niche games actually. There are all kinds of oddities there and I find it hard to believe that wargames are somehow more niche than some of the things they have. And nicheness if never mentioned as a factor in whether Steam sells games or not when on sale. Further, promotional price changes (more than one a year, jeez!) clearly result in big volume changes as well, so no loss of revenue (the reverse, actually).

I think as wargamers we're often taken advantage of by wargamer publishers - second only to flight sim publishers. There are many other niche categroies out there that don't get quite so superior with regards to their fans and customers.

[Ron]

As I recall a similar type of converstaion was going on at Battlefront recently regards CM:SF. BF still sells SF at full price or close to full price from their online shop, yet also have made it available retail which because of the market gets hugely discounted over time, like to around $5. People wondered 'how' money is made for the developer and the answer was because of the much wider market reached further online sales and revenue were generated in the long-term. Now Panther doesn't have the same module approach as BF so that discounts that and Matrix did try the retail route for some of their games, including HttR where I bought mine, so perhaps the results for them have warranted going against discounts. I know I like the engine(am a casual gamer however) and I toyed with purchasing CotA several times, and I just may have if the price was cheaper, but for me the setting and incremental improvements and 'full'(even with sales) price prevented pulling the trigger.