Kamis in AE

[DuckofTindalos]

Kamikaze groups were nowhere near all-volunteer. They started out that way, but didn't remain so.

[spence]

Strategically they failed to accomplish anything other than to cince "The A-bomb Sweepstakes" for Japan

[John 3rd]

I concur that m10bob was rather rude to Brad's original set of questions.  Don't understand why people have to be like that on the Forum.  Not needed.

In Forlorn Hopes I have had some success with Kami but only in conjunction with regular bombers.  Sank BB Howe with 11 2EB Kami and 4 TT hits.  It was fun!  Haven't had much more then what I describe in the AAR.  An average Uber-CAP of 4-800 Fighters doesn't allow ANYTHING through.  May AE truly get rid of it!
 

[GaryChildress]

Looking at a Wiki article on kamikazes, it looks like you are right Terminus. A lot of it was apparently social pressure or worse. I stand corrected.

Saburo Sakai:

"Even now, many faces of my students come up when I close my eyes. So many students are gone. Why did headquarters continue such silly attacks for ten months! Fools! Genda, who went to America — all those men lied that all men volunteered for kamikaze units. They lied."

The more I encounter Saburo Sakai the more he seemed like a very good and honorable man.

[Feinder]

From what I've read, a typical kami mission, late war (not the initially zealous recruits), about 50% of the kamis would tend to have "engine trouble" and were forced to RTB.
 
-F-

[Nomad]

I just hope they have fixed the Kamakazi Airfield attack bug. [:)]

[Q-Ball]

Ok, I started it, so a couple tests:

I started STOCK scenario '44. All units in test are exp 45 to 50 or so. NO ALLIED CAP at all. What kind of hit rate can we get?

Against a group of Oilers; pretty fat target:

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/15/44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 64,66

Japanese aircraft
P1Y Frances x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y Frances: 10 destroyed

Allied Ships
AK Cape Martin
AK Cape Georgia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 64,66

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 73
P1Y Frances x 33

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 73 destroyed
P1Y Frances: 33 destroyed

Allied Ships
AO Kaskaskia, Kamikaze hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
AO Cimarron
AO Kennebago, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire
AO Guadalupe
AO Taluga
AO Caliente
AO Marias
AO Chikaskia, Kamikaze hits 1
AO Platte, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire
AO Nantahala
AO Ashtabula

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 64,66

Japanese aircraft
P1Y Frances x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y Frances: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
AK Hibbing Victory

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 64,66

Japanese aircraft
P1Y Frances x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
P1Y Frances: 10 destroyed

Allied Ships
AO Kaskaskia, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Kennebago, on fire

129 Kamis expended, 11 hits.....that is 8.5% hit rate against virtually no resistance

Test #2....what happens if they actually have FLAK, but no Cap?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 63,67

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 15
D4Y Judy x 3
B6N Jill x 1
G4M2 Betty x 21
P1Y Frances x 40

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 15 destroyed
D4Y Judy: 3 destroyed
B6N Jill: 1 destroyed
G4M2 Betty: 21 destroyed
P1Y Frances: 40 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Kamikaze hits 1
CVL Cabot
CVL Monterey
CV Bunker Hill, Kamikaze hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CL Biloxi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 63,67

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 10
D4Y Judy x 3
B6N Jill x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 10 destroyed
D4Y Judy: 3 destroyed
B6N Jill: 4 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Kamikaze hits 4, on fire
CVL Cabot, Kamikaze hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Monterey, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 63,67

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zeke x 1
B6N Jill x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zeke: 1 destroyed
B6N Jill: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 63,67

Japanese aircraft
G4M2 Betty x 2
P1Y Frances x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M2 Betty: 2 destroyed
P1Y Frances: 12 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Wasp, Kamikaze hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Monterey, on fire

143 Kamis expended....13 hits, or 9%

Not sure how conclusive that is, that's all I have time for, but it is VERY difficult to recreate a 10% or 13% hit rate. I didn't even run the test with CAP, because we know how that will turn out.

The point I wanted to make is that I think the hit rate is too low; once you get through CAP and Flak, it's too low. Remove CAP, and it still doesn't reach historical. And, in the real war, the Allies did have CAP over their ships.

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I concur that m10bob was rather rude to Brad's original set of questions.  Don't understand why people have to be like that on the Forum.  Not needed.

In Forlorn Hopes I have had some success with Kami but only in conjunction with regular bombers.  Sank BB Howe with 11 2EB Kami and 4 TT hits.  It was fun!  Haven't had much more then what I describe in the AAR.  An average Uber-CAP of 4-800 Fighters doesn't allow ANYTHING through.  May AE truly get rid of it!

It's long since that was a "may" and became a "has"...

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Kamikaze groups were nowhere near all-volunteer. They started out that way, but didn't remain so.

Yup. Can't remember the name of the chappie of the top of my head but he was responsible for 'special attack groups'. In the end many squadrons were selected for special attack missions with no regard of asking for consent.

As Feinder mentions late war many planes returned due to 'engine trouble'. Don't recall it being as high as 50% but the number is significant and although some may have genuinely been engine trouble it shows that several of the 'selected' pilots were not volunteering for this but were forced to do so and chose not to kill themselves........

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: spence

Strategically they failed to accomplish anything other than to cince "The A-bomb Sweepstakes" for Japan

May not have strategically accomplished much per se due to the overwhelming resources of the Allies BUT Special Attack missions achieved far far greater results on the enemy compared to conventional attacks. Not to mention the human impact it made on Allied Sailors....as in the mental strain and stress it achieved on Allied Sailors.

[Feinder]

An additional issue is the "target fixation" - where you get 5x (or more!) Kamis goinging into a single LST. It would only take one, rarely two. And the damage model allows ships to persist (and be targets), much longer than they would normally.

-F-

[fabertong]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

An additional issue is the "target fixation" - where you get 5x (or more!) Kamis goinging into a single LST. It would only take one, rarely two. And the damage model allows ships to persist (and be targets), much longer than they would normally.

-F-

I hit an already badly damaged US-CV with 36 Kami hits in one turn........they must have carried on hitting her as she slipped beneath the waves....would have been nice if a few of the boys had thought....'Our work here is done' and lived to fight another day........

[Speedysteve]

Nonsense Brother Penguin[;)]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I concur that m10bob was rather rude to Brad's original set of questions.  Don't understand why people have to be like that on the Forum.  Not needed.

Maybe Bob overreacted based on how he interpreted Q-Ball's post. You might be doing the same thing - give him a break. It's pretty clear from thousands of courteous and helpful posts that Bob is one of the good guys. [8D]

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I concur that m10bob was rather rude to Brad's original set of questions.  Don't understand why people have to be like that on the Forum.  Not needed.

Maybe Bob overreacted based on how he interpreted Q-Ball's post. You might be doing the same thing - give him a break. It's pretty clear from thousands of courteous and helpful posts that Bob is one of the good guys. [8D]

I'm OK with Bob, he's just got AE-itis: A cranky anxiety disorder related to excessive waiting for a new cool product. Last thing I want to suggest is delaying release to bake something in; that can wait for AE-mods.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

AE-itis: A cranky anxiety disorder related to excessive waiting for a new cool product.

Me too!

[byron13]

If Q-Ball's test is representative of Kami capability, then something is off. That many planes going against transports with no CAP should have resulted in more hits. Those pilots were so incompetent that I doubt they could have gotten their planes in the air - or even gotten out of bed without hurting themselves.

It looks like hit percentages are too low. I'm guessing that maybe the chances of hitting a ship by a Kami is using a variation of - if not the same - formula for determining a bomb hit. 45 experience pilots won't get many bomb hits. But it is a lot easier to drive a plane into a ship than it is to drop a bomb on ship - a lot easier than Q-Ball's tests indicate.

This should be looked at a little more, me thinks. Let's hold up the release for another month or two to look at it.

. . . okay, maybe we can look at it after release. But it does look like something is off and it's been hidden by uber-CAP and flak walls.

[witpqs]

As he noted those tests were with WITP, not AE.

[byron13]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

As he noted those tests were with WITP, not AE.

True, but unless it was mentioned somewhere else in the forum, there's no indication that anything was changed. Actually, I'm just bored and waiting around for the release of . . . That which doesn't exist.

[vettim89]

Sources vary wildly on Kamikazes. I have found numbers ranging form 2300 to 400 sorties flown against the fleet off Okinawa in 1945. One British source with the lowest sorties also mentions that nearly 50% returned to base. Now that number includes escorting fighters. Interesting this source also lists the highest hit rate of 18.6 %

So much is difficult to model. Some aspects that need to be considered but may be very hard to model if not impossible:

1. Kamikazes were only effective against a fixed target. I cannot find a single refernce to a hit on a ship that was not either directly invloved in or supporting an invasion. I don't think WITP models this. The will attack TF's moving from base to base just as well as those unloading at an invasion site.

2. Kamikazes tended to fixate on the same target. This may be modelable. We know that the engine does tend to realistic fixate fire in night SCTF battle on a ship on fire.

3. Kamikaze effectiveness increased with raid size. The CAP was very effective against small attacks but hard a harder time dealing with the Floating Crysanthamum's. I think this is modeled in AE

4. Kamikaze damage was not as davstating as we think to capaital ships. At least four USN CV's were hit multiple times by Kamazes. Considering their relative short term use, this means they were damaged and returned to the fleet fairly quickly and damaged again.

5. US tactics evolved very quickly and the Kamikazes were a lot less effective at the end of their use than the beginning.

BTW, I agree with Q-Ball: the hit rate is way too low. I think the reason the damage was less on Cap ships is they tended not to penetrate well. Even though they carried a bomb, they did not have the ability to achieve the same kinetic profile as a SAP or AP bom at terminal velocity heading almost straight down. Many hits were glancing blows and did not penetrate very deeply into an armored ship. They were devastating to DD's, CVE's and small ships though