The First Team: Take Two!
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
RE: Post-Yamato
Japanese Naval Education 101: Kaigun Translates towards the Imperial Fleet.
There is a MASTERFUL work entitled Kaigun that came out about 10 years ago and I heartily recommend it. It is masterful.
Perhaps you have read the title of my latest Thread in the Forlorn Hopes AAR: "Kaigun's Final Sortie?"
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
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Canoerebel
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RE: Post-Yamato
I read all your AAR titles, so I have seen "Kaigun" referred to many times; I just didn't know what it was. I thought it was a fleet of Volkswagens obtained from Germany to transports foreign dignitaries around Honshu.
I've started our "joint" Forlorn Hopes thread. Take a look.
I've started our "joint" Forlorn Hopes thread. Take a look.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: Post-Yamato
Combat Report
May 21, 1942
A frustrating turn, as instead of capturing a large British army, they flee into the Himilayas. Not a complete disaster, as that can't be good for morale and cohesion.
Burma
Shock attack on 30K British troops at Myiktinya nets a 93-1 attack....and a retreat to the hills SE of town toward Tatung. Worse, our tanks follow the British. It will take awhile to bring them back, and I don't want to attack the Brits, as they would retreat again to the trail closer to Tatung. DAMN! I thought those units would surrender.
We still have 11 Chinese units on the trail north of Lashio, so we will attack them now, and see what happens. Probably another retreat into the hills.
If we don't destroy units, at least we take Burma with ease.
India
Jaipur should fall tommorow, with several Allied units fleeing to Karachi. I have to hand it to our opponents; they successfully retreated in India, while holding us off for a bit. It will take 2 months to close out the continent.
New Zealand
John sank an AK off the south island yesterday. Christchurch should be attacked shortly. New Zealand has been better for POWs; nowhere to retreat
Phillipines
We will remind the readers that the USAFFE forces are still surrounded at Bataan and Manila. Yesterday, the Allies attempted a shock attack against our 200 AV at Manila; it failed miserably. Not sure if that was a legit breakout attempt, or trying to get killed off, but I'm sure they burned alot of supply. The plan is to keep the Allies couped up, and let them starve. We will probably have to attack Manila in 6 months for the points, but I don't see why we should ever take Bataan.
May 21, 1942
A frustrating turn, as instead of capturing a large British army, they flee into the Himilayas. Not a complete disaster, as that can't be good for morale and cohesion.
Burma
Shock attack on 30K British troops at Myiktinya nets a 93-1 attack....and a retreat to the hills SE of town toward Tatung. Worse, our tanks follow the British. It will take awhile to bring them back, and I don't want to attack the Brits, as they would retreat again to the trail closer to Tatung. DAMN! I thought those units would surrender.
We still have 11 Chinese units on the trail north of Lashio, so we will attack them now, and see what happens. Probably another retreat into the hills.
If we don't destroy units, at least we take Burma with ease.
India
Jaipur should fall tommorow, with several Allied units fleeing to Karachi. I have to hand it to our opponents; they successfully retreated in India, while holding us off for a bit. It will take 2 months to close out the continent.
New Zealand
John sank an AK off the south island yesterday. Christchurch should be attacked shortly. New Zealand has been better for POWs; nowhere to retreat
Phillipines
We will remind the readers that the USAFFE forces are still surrounded at Bataan and Manila. Yesterday, the Allies attempted a shock attack against our 200 AV at Manila; it failed miserably. Not sure if that was a legit breakout attempt, or trying to get killed off, but I'm sure they burned alot of supply. The plan is to keep the Allies couped up, and let them starve. We will probably have to attack Manila in 6 months for the points, but I don't see why we should ever take Bataan.
RE: Post-Yamato
Isn't my Fellow Man of the Empire a mean SOB??!! Just letting those poor, helpless Allied soldiers die.
As to that AK I sank...I think there are more of them trying to lift away planes or troops. The KB is on each side of the island and is Transport hunting!
The remaining portion of the future KB departed Truk for Auckland. In about 10 days, I will reorganize the Fleet into 3 CTF of 2 CV and 1 CVL. It will stay in this form until Brad is content with his work in the IO and I get the Junyos and a CVL back...
As to that AK I sank...I think there are more of them trying to lift away planes or troops. The KB is on each side of the island and is Transport hunting!
The remaining portion of the future KB departed Truk for Auckland. In about 10 days, I will reorganize the Fleet into 3 CTF of 2 CV and 1 CVL. It will stay in this form until Brad is content with his work in the IO and I get the Junyos and a CVL back...
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ny59giants
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RE: Post-Yamato
Burma
Shock attack on 30K British troops at Myiktinya nets a 93-1 attack....and a retreat to the hills SE of town toward Tatung. Worse, our tanks follow the British. It will take awhile to bring them back, and I don't want to attack the Brits, as they would retreat again to the trail closer to Tatung. DAMN! I thought those units would surrender.
We still have 11 Chinese units on the trail north of Lashio, so we will attack them now, and see what happens. Probably another retreat into the hills.
If we don't destroy units, at least we take Burma with ease.
Brad,
You do know what the "W" key does, don't you?!? It shows who has a ZOC for that hex. I've taught John how to use the Hot Keys, do you need a refresher course??
You need to use it more when plotting land combat and movement.
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[/center]RE: Post-Yamato
ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Brad,
You do know what the "W" key does, don't you?!? It shows who has a ZOC for that hex. I've taught John how to use the Hot Keys, do you need a refresher course??
You need to use it more when plotting land combat and movement.
Well, this is my 2nd PBEM of any length, so I'm still learning, and sometimes you learn the hard way. Had I to do it over, I would have intentionally left Ledo unoccupied, which would have meant a retreat toward Ledo and certain starvation.
I will remember this now, the W key is my friend
The Land Combat completely mystifies me in this game, and I'm not particularly good at it.
Crappy Burma Results...
The screenshot fills you in on how Burma winds down with Myitkyina falling and the 36,30 hex becoming ours. TOTALLY frustrating! Cannot wait for AE Ground Combat!
As you look at that I made a proposition to Brad regarding Bombay. This is what I sent him in an email:
I'd like to try something with Bombay. What do you think about setting up a CAP trap? We move a group of old CL and DDs to Pangrim and set them to Naval Attack. As they move--we KNOW they will be hit by 4EB right???---we CAP them with 3-4 Daitai/Sentai of Fighters so when the B-17s arrive overhead they have to fight their way past 50-75 Fighters. We might seriously bag some planes and play merry hell with their morale.
What do you think?
As you look at that I made a proposition to Brad regarding Bombay. This is what I sent him in an email:
I'd like to try something with Bombay. What do you think about setting up a CAP trap? We move a group of old CL and DDs to Pangrim and set them to Naval Attack. As they move--we KNOW they will be hit by 4EB right???---we CAP them with 3-4 Daitai/Sentai of Fighters so when the B-17s arrive overhead they have to fight their way past 50-75 Fighters. We might seriously bag some planes and play merry hell with their morale.
What do you think?
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Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: Crappy Burma Results...
Combat Report
May 22,23,24 1942
The last few turns have been fairly uneventful, thus the lack of detailed updates. But here are some highlights:
Burma
John posted a nice screen above, that pretty much says it all. I am moving in the trail between Myiktinya and Lashio in order to hopefully capture those 5 units; the rest of the Chinese and British forces are retreating to Tatung. The British units stuck in the Himilayas attacked our two tank units, but caused no damage. They are clearly spent.
India
We have cleared Ahmadebad, Jaipur, and Delhi. A single unit is marching into northern Pakistan to occupy those two cities, which appear vacant. Everyone else is marching to Malir, where we will cross the river above Karachi and march into the hex.
Intel reports 34 units at Karachi. I suspect we won't be able to overcome that either without a long siege, so we'll see what the next steps are. Bombay is easier to bomb due to the presence of more nearby airbases, and is also closer to Naval gunfire support, so we may leave a screening force in Karachi and go for Bombay. Can't really decide until we know what's in the hex at Karachi. I probably need to get an Allied OOB, and account for every unit so we know what's where. The Karachi troops could be fragments from the Phillipines or Burma, we'll see.
New Zealand
John is closing on Christchurch, and should be attacking shortly.
India Ocean Plans
Once Burma wraps up, we are going to invade Ceylon. I already have a couple units prepping. We need bases on the nearby India coast to bomb from, and we also need to finish repair on our BBs in order to take out the 9.2 CD guns at Trincomalee, so all that should come together in about 30 days. They don't have much in the way of ground troops there, but those CD guns can be tough, and should be well dug-in. We need to clear Ceylon from our rear, plus we should bag 10K POWs or so at least, and we could use the ports.
Imperial Japanese Navy
The Western Fleet is keeping a respectful distance from the 4E bombers at Bombay, and is repairing the heavy ships in port. There isn't alot of room for CVs to maneuver on the map edge over there, so we may just send the CV force elsewhere. Not sure yet. There isn't alot we can accomplish at the moment, and once we have bases built on the Indian coast, Bettys can do the trick for sinking transports.
Out East, KB is searching around New Zealand for a couple spotted transports. It appeared to be an evacuation, though I would have looked as well, so far we haven't found anything, and showing our CV's makes me nervous. Not sure about that.
The BCs are all repairing in port, and are very beat up with OPS damage. Yamato is headed in that direction.
At the moment, the fleet distribution is roughly:
EASTERN PAC: KB, 2 Zuihos, Ryujo, 4 BCs, most of the CAs.
BAY OF BENGAL: 6 slow BBs (all under repair), Baby KB (2 Junyos, 2 CVEs), and some CL/DD forces.
Basically, the "Fast" fleet is in the Eastern Pacific, the "Slow" fleet is in the Bay of Bengal.
May 22,23,24 1942
The last few turns have been fairly uneventful, thus the lack of detailed updates. But here are some highlights:
Burma
John posted a nice screen above, that pretty much says it all. I am moving in the trail between Myiktinya and Lashio in order to hopefully capture those 5 units; the rest of the Chinese and British forces are retreating to Tatung. The British units stuck in the Himilayas attacked our two tank units, but caused no damage. They are clearly spent.
India
We have cleared Ahmadebad, Jaipur, and Delhi. A single unit is marching into northern Pakistan to occupy those two cities, which appear vacant. Everyone else is marching to Malir, where we will cross the river above Karachi and march into the hex.
Intel reports 34 units at Karachi. I suspect we won't be able to overcome that either without a long siege, so we'll see what the next steps are. Bombay is easier to bomb due to the presence of more nearby airbases, and is also closer to Naval gunfire support, so we may leave a screening force in Karachi and go for Bombay. Can't really decide until we know what's in the hex at Karachi. I probably need to get an Allied OOB, and account for every unit so we know what's where. The Karachi troops could be fragments from the Phillipines or Burma, we'll see.
New Zealand
John is closing on Christchurch, and should be attacking shortly.
India Ocean Plans
Once Burma wraps up, we are going to invade Ceylon. I already have a couple units prepping. We need bases on the nearby India coast to bomb from, and we also need to finish repair on our BBs in order to take out the 9.2 CD guns at Trincomalee, so all that should come together in about 30 days. They don't have much in the way of ground troops there, but those CD guns can be tough, and should be well dug-in. We need to clear Ceylon from our rear, plus we should bag 10K POWs or so at least, and we could use the ports.
Imperial Japanese Navy
The Western Fleet is keeping a respectful distance from the 4E bombers at Bombay, and is repairing the heavy ships in port. There isn't alot of room for CVs to maneuver on the map edge over there, so we may just send the CV force elsewhere. Not sure yet. There isn't alot we can accomplish at the moment, and once we have bases built on the Indian coast, Bettys can do the trick for sinking transports.
Out East, KB is searching around New Zealand for a couple spotted transports. It appeared to be an evacuation, though I would have looked as well, so far we haven't found anything, and showing our CV's makes me nervous. Not sure about that.
The BCs are all repairing in port, and are very beat up with OPS damage. Yamato is headed in that direction.
At the moment, the fleet distribution is roughly:
EASTERN PAC: KB, 2 Zuihos, Ryujo, 4 BCs, most of the CAs.
BAY OF BENGAL: 6 slow BBs (all under repair), Baby KB (2 Junyos, 2 CVEs), and some CL/DD forces.
Basically, the "Fast" fleet is in the Eastern Pacific, the "Slow" fleet is in the Bay of Bengal.
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Canoerebel
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RE: Bombay
That's a stout force! How many Indian divisions are in the Allied OOB at this point in the game? If there aren't any/many other than those shown in Bombay or accounted for in Burma, then the Karachi defense might be a cobbled-together and weak force, although perhaps the Allies moved alot of Chinese into India, and are now using them to garrison Karachi.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: Bombay
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
That's a stout force! How many Indian divisions are in the Allied OOB at this point in the game? If there aren't any/many other than those shown in Bombay or accounted for in Burma, then the Karachi defense might be a cobbled-together and weak force, although perhaps the Allies moved alot of Chinese into India, and are now using them to garrison Karachi.
I am going to construct an OOB now to try to figure it out. Alot of the units in Bombay are from Malaya; don't you love that?
EDIT: OK, here we go. Here are the units that start in SE Asia, that are unaccounted for. Note that there are several Malaya units at Bombay, so we have to assume there are fragments around for that whole army to reconstruct. So unaccounted for include:
INDIA at START:
2 2/3 Indian Divisions (14th,17th, and the other 2/3 of the 20th)
44th Ind Bde
45th Ind Bde
4 District Bdes
2 Indian Tank Bdes
MALAYA AT START:
5 Bdes (6,12,22 ind, both Aus Brigades)
BURMA AT START:
2 Bdes (13th, 16th Ind)
Based on what we have seen in Burma, we doubt there are any Chinese troops in India.
That's not quite what they have in Bombay, but we have to figure at least 1000 AV based just on the at-start troops in India
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Canoerebel
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RE: Bombay
I dunno if I love it or not. 
You guys have done a great job with your India campaign. You conceived it, planned it, implemented it, and accomplished most of what you set out to do, and doing so was a challenge. Also, as best I can tell you've lost next to nothing. You guys ROCK!
At the same time, you have to admire the Allies for conducting an effective defense and then an organized retreat that allows them to likely save Bombay or Karachi or both. They've lost troops, but they too seem rather unscathed at this point.
That you and John have also taken most of NZ, Suva, and Pago Pago is icing on the cake.
Now, let's see what your opponents can do. It's going to be a tough game, because both sides are clearly up to the challenge.
I just wish your opponents were doing an AAR.
You guys have done a great job with your India campaign. You conceived it, planned it, implemented it, and accomplished most of what you set out to do, and doing so was a challenge. Also, as best I can tell you've lost next to nothing. You guys ROCK!
At the same time, you have to admire the Allies for conducting an effective defense and then an organized retreat that allows them to likely save Bombay or Karachi or both. They've lost troops, but they too seem rather unscathed at this point.
That you and John have also taken most of NZ, Suva, and Pago Pago is icing on the cake.
Now, let's see what your opponents can do. It's going to be a tough game, because both sides are clearly up to the challenge.
I just wish your opponents were doing an AAR.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: India Proposition
If you don't take Bombay and Karachi then this Indian drive will NOT have been worth it. The dissipation of strategic effort from the earliest landing was always a massive worry and now you are paying the price. Mopping up has delayed you sufficiently that the CRUCIAL strategic targets ( the two bases from which the Allies could fight back without having to mount major amphibious invasions ) are now, possibly, beyond your reach.
What you NEED to do is:
a) use the MINIMUM force possible behind your lines to prevent Allied forces cut off behind your lines from doing any major damage
b) concentrate ALL your force in India on Bombay ( except a small amount to prevent Karachi forces coming to its aid )
c) SWEEP, SWEEP and SWEEP again the air over Bombay. If it costs 400 fighters then do it. Do it in ONE DAY and break the back of the Bombay defences once and for all. Once the sweeps have done their job send in the level bombers on airfield attack missions.
d)BOMBARD, BOMBARD, BOMBARD to lower enemy supplies ( in conjunction with air attacks on the airfield and port ).
e) ship in every soldier you can find. If you can buy out another 1,000 AV then do so. Leave the Pacific weak if you have to ( your CVs can cover for ground weakness tehre ) but be SURE of India through holding nothing back.
f) attack Bombay mercilessly.
Once you have Bombay you should be able to use Bettys and CVEs and CVLs basing frmo Bombay to prevent resupply from Aden. If the Allies only get 6,000 tons of supplies per month as auto-supply then you should be able to starve them out with ground bombardments and airstrikes over the course of many months.
This failure to split the enemy forces before investing Karachi has cost you the ability to mount major operations elsewhere ( New Zealand is folly when you consider the troops there might have done a lot more good around Bombay 2 weeks ago ) in the rest of 1942 BUT the most important thing is pushing through and taking Bombay and Karachi.
You need to be quick though as in 1 month's time you should expect Karachi to begin receiving US troops... Without supply though those US troops won't fare well.
If you don't take Karachi or Bombay then even a mediocre opponent is going to bleed your ground forces dry in India and quickly Inchon you ( look at the terrain to the east of Bombay, a few FT TFs dropping a Bde at each hex can give the thousands of troops he can bring into Bombay in 1943 operational freedom and then BAM it's all over for you in India ).
You need to take both, you need to do this quickly and you need to stop this dissipation of force you both seem so fond of.
What you NEED to do is:
a) use the MINIMUM force possible behind your lines to prevent Allied forces cut off behind your lines from doing any major damage
b) concentrate ALL your force in India on Bombay ( except a small amount to prevent Karachi forces coming to its aid )
c) SWEEP, SWEEP and SWEEP again the air over Bombay. If it costs 400 fighters then do it. Do it in ONE DAY and break the back of the Bombay defences once and for all. Once the sweeps have done their job send in the level bombers on airfield attack missions.
d)BOMBARD, BOMBARD, BOMBARD to lower enemy supplies ( in conjunction with air attacks on the airfield and port ).
e) ship in every soldier you can find. If you can buy out another 1,000 AV then do so. Leave the Pacific weak if you have to ( your CVs can cover for ground weakness tehre ) but be SURE of India through holding nothing back.
f) attack Bombay mercilessly.
Once you have Bombay you should be able to use Bettys and CVEs and CVLs basing frmo Bombay to prevent resupply from Aden. If the Allies only get 6,000 tons of supplies per month as auto-supply then you should be able to starve them out with ground bombardments and airstrikes over the course of many months.
This failure to split the enemy forces before investing Karachi has cost you the ability to mount major operations elsewhere ( New Zealand is folly when you consider the troops there might have done a lot more good around Bombay 2 weeks ago ) in the rest of 1942 BUT the most important thing is pushing through and taking Bombay and Karachi.
You need to be quick though as in 1 month's time you should expect Karachi to begin receiving US troops... Without supply though those US troops won't fare well.
If you don't take Karachi or Bombay then even a mediocre opponent is going to bleed your ground forces dry in India and quickly Inchon you ( look at the terrain to the east of Bombay, a few FT TFs dropping a Bde at each hex can give the thousands of troops he can bring into Bombay in 1943 operational freedom and then BAM it's all over for you in India ).
You need to take both, you need to do this quickly and you need to stop this dissipation of force you both seem so fond of.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: Bombay
I concur that they should be writing an AAR! It seems that so many have enjoyed reading Dan and Mine's it would be nice for our readers here to do the same. Perhaps someone should BUMP their thread?
The biggest advantages we have in India right now is that we have a massive air arm of fighters and bombers as well as 6 BB about ready to go. Once we figure out what we are facing and make the decisions as to where to concentrate for attack and seige we'll see what happens. Bombay makes the much more logical attack. We can use our airpower, once the AFs are expanded, and have our BBs rotate through Mandalore bombarding Bombay every other day. Makes best sense to attack where we are strongest; however, if Karachi has only fragments then...
The biggest advantages we have in India right now is that we have a massive air arm of fighters and bombers as well as 6 BB about ready to go. Once we figure out what we are facing and make the decisions as to where to concentrate for attack and seige we'll see what happens. Bombay makes the much more logical attack. We can use our airpower, once the AFs are expanded, and have our BBs rotate through Mandalore bombarding Bombay every other day. Makes best sense to attack where we are strongest; however, if Karachi has only fragments then...
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: India Proposition
Canoerebel,
Do you seriously believe what you say?
How can you call this a success? They dissipated their forces, allowed their opponents to retreat in good order ( when a single axis advance north from the landing zone would have cut India into portions and prevented their opponents doing this, thus ensuring the collapse of Bombay and Karachi ), and are now in the position of possibly NOT TAKING the TWO MOST CRUCIAL BASES IN INDIA.
I would hardly have called World War II a success if it hadn't ended up with either the Third Reich or the Japanese government falling. Sure the Allies toppled the Italian, Romanian and Hungarian governments but nothing is a success unless you secure the prime targets. Without the prime targets you are talking about mitigation of failure, not success.
NZ, Suva and Pago Pago..... Well, taking them is nice but taking those at the cost of not taking Bombay is a terrible trade. Without Bombay and Karachi they stand to lose this war much earlier than if they took Bombay and Karachi. NZ, Suva and Pago Pago won't keep them in the war for that extra time.
What can their opponents do? Tough game? I really don't think so. Here's the simple solution to this assuming John etc don't finish Bombay off:
1. Troops and supplies and fighters to Bombay to keep it open.
2. APs and FT TFs to Bombay in order to transport Brigade fragments to the coastal rail hexes east and south of Bombay.
3. Co-ordinate this with para drops of troops shipped in from CONUSA via Panama Canal and Atlantic etc. ( since Bombay is coastal these paras can be dropped up to 30 hexes away using PBYs.
4. Now use the large land army you have built up at Bombay to march out of Bombay behind the Japanese forces besieging Karachi.
5. Once the IJA pulls away from karachi in order to avoid being cut off then move out of Karachi and switch to a general pursuit down to Calcutta via Delhi.
If the Allies are particularly ruthless they can achieve the same thing at Karachi by landing in the coastal hexes and Ahmadabad. Whatever IJA forces invest Karachi will be left with no lines of supply and will just be stuck without anywhere to move. Destroyed as surely as if they were killed to a man in battle.
Whether their opponents are good enough to see this or not is a different matter but I would suggest that congratulating them for allowing this to happen through making strategic errors doesn't help them to improve their play.
John and Q-Ball HAVE played well but let's not let that blind them or us to the mistakes they have made or they won't learn from them and improve. I tell you now that if I was the Allies in this position I would feel supremely confident of having India back fully in my control ( and several thousand IJA AV destroyed or in prison camps ) by the end of September 1942.
Taking India except for Bombay and karachi is a serious over-extension. if you can't take at least Bombay then I think you should conduct an orderly retreat from India back into Burma +/- a force at Ceylon to delay the Allies.
Do you seriously believe what you say?
How can you call this a success? They dissipated their forces, allowed their opponents to retreat in good order ( when a single axis advance north from the landing zone would have cut India into portions and prevented their opponents doing this, thus ensuring the collapse of Bombay and Karachi ), and are now in the position of possibly NOT TAKING the TWO MOST CRUCIAL BASES IN INDIA.
I would hardly have called World War II a success if it hadn't ended up with either the Third Reich or the Japanese government falling. Sure the Allies toppled the Italian, Romanian and Hungarian governments but nothing is a success unless you secure the prime targets. Without the prime targets you are talking about mitigation of failure, not success.
NZ, Suva and Pago Pago..... Well, taking them is nice but taking those at the cost of not taking Bombay is a terrible trade. Without Bombay and Karachi they stand to lose this war much earlier than if they took Bombay and Karachi. NZ, Suva and Pago Pago won't keep them in the war for that extra time.
What can their opponents do? Tough game? I really don't think so. Here's the simple solution to this assuming John etc don't finish Bombay off:
1. Troops and supplies and fighters to Bombay to keep it open.
2. APs and FT TFs to Bombay in order to transport Brigade fragments to the coastal rail hexes east and south of Bombay.
3. Co-ordinate this with para drops of troops shipped in from CONUSA via Panama Canal and Atlantic etc. ( since Bombay is coastal these paras can be dropped up to 30 hexes away using PBYs.
4. Now use the large land army you have built up at Bombay to march out of Bombay behind the Japanese forces besieging Karachi.
5. Once the IJA pulls away from karachi in order to avoid being cut off then move out of Karachi and switch to a general pursuit down to Calcutta via Delhi.
If the Allies are particularly ruthless they can achieve the same thing at Karachi by landing in the coastal hexes and Ahmadabad. Whatever IJA forces invest Karachi will be left with no lines of supply and will just be stuck without anywhere to move. Destroyed as surely as if they were killed to a man in battle.
Whether their opponents are good enough to see this or not is a different matter but I would suggest that congratulating them for allowing this to happen through making strategic errors doesn't help them to improve their play.
John and Q-Ball HAVE played well but let's not let that blind them or us to the mistakes they have made or they won't learn from them and improve. I tell you now that if I was the Allies in this position I would feel supremely confident of having India back fully in my control ( and several thousand IJA AV destroyed or in prison camps ) by the end of September 1942.
Taking India except for Bombay and karachi is a serious over-extension. if you can't take at least Bombay then I think you should conduct an orderly retreat from India back into Burma +/- a force at Ceylon to delay the Allies.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: Bombay
Nemo and I just said a few similar things as our postings crossed in the either!
I don't agree with the New Zealand comment though. Remember that this Operation has only cost us the use of about 800 AS. We agreed from the start that 56th ID would be used in the Pacific with the South Seas Force. To these units the only addition was the 9th Ind Brigade from China. That is it when it comes to Infantry.
As to reinforcements coming towards India, we have bought out a batch of Support Units from Korea to aid in more rapidly expanding bases and Forts in India. Several Heavy Artillery Regiments and a TK Regiment are also on the way. We plan to buy out a full strength Infantry Division as soon as possible from Korea and move it to India.
The KB will be fully concentrated in about 7 days at Auckland. After some R&R they will move to Pago Pago and raise some Hell. My goal is to keep up the attacks while trying to mimize the risk to the Fleet. Going after Canton will--hopefully--provoke a response on a battlefield of our choosing. We should have 6 CV and 3 CVL operating there and that should provide a stout enough force to cause some serious damage.
As to folly in India, I will never see it that way. We have driven the enemy back to the edge of the country. Even if we cannot drive them out, the fight begins a LONG WAY FROM BURMA. My feelings are quite simple. The moment we realize that we cannot take out these last targets then we set-up our defense planning on an Inchon-Type Landing. The earliest the Allies may be able to do that is 1943. Throughout that time we will milk India for Manpower, Heavy Industry, and everything else we can gain. Our economy will be massively strengthened for at least 12 months of game time. Add to that no danger to Burma then we are in great shape.
There will be no repeat of Dan's work in THIS campaign! Some might call this "Forlorn Hopes Derrangement Syndrom." 
I don't agree with the New Zealand comment though. Remember that this Operation has only cost us the use of about 800 AS. We agreed from the start that 56th ID would be used in the Pacific with the South Seas Force. To these units the only addition was the 9th Ind Brigade from China. That is it when it comes to Infantry.
As to reinforcements coming towards India, we have bought out a batch of Support Units from Korea to aid in more rapidly expanding bases and Forts in India. Several Heavy Artillery Regiments and a TK Regiment are also on the way. We plan to buy out a full strength Infantry Division as soon as possible from Korea and move it to India.
The KB will be fully concentrated in about 7 days at Auckland. After some R&R they will move to Pago Pago and raise some Hell. My goal is to keep up the attacks while trying to mimize the risk to the Fleet. Going after Canton will--hopefully--provoke a response on a battlefield of our choosing. We should have 6 CV and 3 CVL operating there and that should provide a stout enough force to cause some serious damage.
As to folly in India, I will never see it that way. We have driven the enemy back to the edge of the country. Even if we cannot drive them out, the fight begins a LONG WAY FROM BURMA. My feelings are quite simple. The moment we realize that we cannot take out these last targets then we set-up our defense planning on an Inchon-Type Landing. The earliest the Allies may be able to do that is 1943. Throughout that time we will milk India for Manpower, Heavy Industry, and everything else we can gain. Our economy will be massively strengthened for at least 12 months of game time. Add to that no danger to Burma then we are in great shape.
There will be no repeat of Dan's work in THIS campaign! Some might call this "Forlorn Hopes Derrangement Syndrom."
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: Bombay
The earliest is early 1943? With all due respect John I'd have you out of India by the end of September 1942 at the latest and I'm no miracle-worker as a player so if I can do it so can they using nothing more than a bit of common sense and appropriate application of the basics. Without Bombay or Karachi your current position in India is just one huge kessel begging for an imaginative updating of a good old-fashioned kesselschlacht with paras and FT TFs substituting for cavalry and panzers.
Failing to see that merely ensures the kesselschlacht will be successful.
As to the NZ force... 1,000 extra AV in India when you first landed could have made the march to Bombay before it got fortified. Dissipation of force is seldom a good idea and what has been happening to India both strategically and operationally.
Failing to see that merely ensures the kesselschlacht will be successful.
As to the NZ force... 1,000 extra AV in India when you first landed could have made the march to Bombay before it got fortified. Dissipation of force is seldom a good idea and what has been happening to India both strategically and operationally.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: India Proposition
ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Canoerebel,
Do you seriously believe what you say?
How can you call this a success? They dissipated their forces, allowed their opponents to retreat in good order ( when a single axis advance north from the landing zone would have cut India into portions and prevented their opponents doing this, thus ensuring the collapse of Bombay and Karachi ), and are now in the position of possibly NOT TAKING the TWO MOST CRUCIAL BASES IN INDIA.
I would hardly have called World War II a success if it hadn't ended up with either the Third Reich or the Japanese government falling. Sure the Allies toppled the Italian, Romanian and Hungarian governments but nothing is a success unless you secure the prime targets. Without the prime targets you are talking about mitigation of failure, not success.
NZ, Suva and Pago Pago..... Well, taking them is nice but taking those at the cost of not taking Bombay is a terrible trade. Without Bombay and Karachi they stand to lose this war much earlier than if they took Bombay and Karachi. NZ, Suva and Pago Pago won't keep them in the war for that extra time.
What can their opponents do? Tough game? I really don't think so. Here's the simple solution to this assuming John etc don't finish Bombay off:
1. Troops and supplies and fighters to Bombay to keep it open.
2. APs and FT TFs to Bombay in order to transport Brigade fragments to the coastal rail hexes east and south of Bombay.
3. Co-ordinate this with para drops of troops shipped in from CONUSA via Panama Canal and Atlantic etc. ( since Bombay is coastal these paras can be dropped up to 30 hexes away using PBYs.
4. Now use the large land army you have built up at Bombay to march out of Bombay behind the Japanese forces besieging Karachi.
5. Once the IJA pulls away from karachi in order to avoid being cut off then move out of Karachi and switch to a general pursuit down to Calcutta via Delhi.
If the Allies are particularly ruthless they can achieve the same thing at Karachi by landing in the coastal hexes and Ahmadabad. Whatever IJA forces invest Karachi will be left with no lines of supply and will just be stuck without anywhere to move. Destroyed as surely as if they were killed to a man in battle.
Whether their opponents are good enough to see this or not is a different matter but I would suggest that congratulating them for allowing this to happen through making strategic errors doesn't help them to improve their play.
John and Q-Ball HAVE played well but let's not let that blind them or us to the mistakes they have made or they won't learn from them and improve. I tell you now that if I was the Allies in this position I would feel supremely confident of having India back fully in my control ( and several thousand IJA AV destroyed or in prison camps ) by the end of September 1942.
Taking India except for Bombay and karachi is a serious over-extension. if you can't take at least Bombay then I think you should conduct an orderly retreat from India back into Burma +/- a force at Ceylon to delay the Allies.
Enhance your calm Sir.
The problem with our India attack was the division of our troops into 3 EQUAL-sized attack groups. This mistake allowed our opponents to cobble together a Normandy-like defense. We could push but not break until a concentration was achieved.
The problem in the break-out---JUST LIKE COBRA---is that it was on the wrong flank. We broke out on the left flank where the race to dividing India was much longer then if we had broken out in the east. That was unfortunate...
Had I realized we weren't going to capture those units fleeing from eastern India, then I would have recommended to Brad about charging towards Bombay. Instead we had a Brittany-like diversion of badly needed troops to clear out Madras, Trivandrum, Mandalore, Bangalore, and Pangrim.
The best move would have been to leave all that, cut across the peninsula, and grab Bombay. Problem is that is hindsight thinking. Didn't even occur to me that we should do that. It was a serious mistake that we are now paying for.
Reality is that WE MUST TAKE BOMBAY. It cannot become a Tobruk behind our lines. Brad is deploying Base forces and Engineering units as fast as possible to build-up the bases near Bombay. Poona, Pangrim, Mandalore, and Hyderabad will be expanded enough to allow for well over 1,000 planes. We desperately need our Tojos NOW!
I have learned from Dan the value of multiple attacks over the same target. Sweep from nearby locations, Sweep from a more distant location, and then send in the Bombers! Gaining air control is priority number one...
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: India Proposition
Perhaps the only other thing that should be tossed into the conversation is a reminder that this is a 2x2. The original division of labor had Brad handling the DEI while I handled Burma and the Pacific. As things developed I picked up New Zealand and China while Brad took on Burma and India. While we have worked fantastically well together and have had a joint vision of things one needs to remember that we divided stuff from the outset and that has partially led to where we are right now.
I would challenge anyone to take the DEI in a more magnificent manner then Brad did. It was masterful.
All I wanted from India was to take the eastern portion of the country so the battle for India/Burma would start farther away then IRL. This offensive is similar to what happened in Australia with Dan when I had him pinned to Melbourne and Sydney. As soon as I realized I could not take these locations I immediately began to redeploy and pull units out for fighting elsewhere. The key to our situation here is to understand the same thing.
I would challenge anyone to take the DEI in a more magnificent manner then Brad did. It was masterful.
All I wanted from India was to take the eastern portion of the country so the battle for India/Burma would start farther away then IRL. This offensive is similar to what happened in Australia with Dan when I had him pinned to Melbourne and Sydney. As soon as I realized I could not take these locations I immediately began to redeploy and pull units out for fighting elsewhere. The key to our situation here is to understand the same thing.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: India Proposition
I think the biggest problem in India is that I didn't understand that units move slower over the skinny RR lines. I probably plowed over 1/2 our forces in a move NW, the holdup was less the Allies and more my inexperience with land movement, particularly units marching off rail lines when I really didn't want them to. Pursuit is always slower than retreat it seems.
So, I think the problem was less a dispersion of force issue and more of a management of game engine issue. That and I think from the first landing they had planned to retreat, and had NE India cleared of troops after the initial landing.
It's clear Bombay is pretty key, but we can't do anything about it until we have airbases, which are under construction. We have plenty of planes to swamp them, just no platforms to launch from. Once we do, we should be able to turn it into rubble.
In the end, sure the Allies can bounce back in India, but other than an outright conquest of India, there are no knockout blows available in the Pacific or anywhere else, the Allies are going to bounce back regardless. At some point we will have to retreat from India, but I don't think that will be 1942, and at any rate there are plenty of ways to get out intact.
Also, as an EDIT to Nemo's comments, there is a HR preventing landings in other than base hexes, so alot of the envelopment plans you detailed wouldn't work unless they get ashore at Pangim, Mangalore, or Triv. Pangim is most likely target.
So, I think the problem was less a dispersion of force issue and more of a management of game engine issue. That and I think from the first landing they had planned to retreat, and had NE India cleared of troops after the initial landing.
It's clear Bombay is pretty key, but we can't do anything about it until we have airbases, which are under construction. We have plenty of planes to swamp them, just no platforms to launch from. Once we do, we should be able to turn it into rubble.
In the end, sure the Allies can bounce back in India, but other than an outright conquest of India, there are no knockout blows available in the Pacific or anywhere else, the Allies are going to bounce back regardless. At some point we will have to retreat from India, but I don't think that will be 1942, and at any rate there are plenty of ways to get out intact.
Also, as an EDIT to Nemo's comments, there is a HR preventing landings in other than base hexes, so alot of the envelopment plans you detailed wouldn't work unless they get ashore at Pangim, Mangalore, or Triv. Pangim is most likely target.