Strat Bombing question

[Chaylaton]

Hey everyone, its been awhile since I posted a question about my board game issues so here it comes. Well here it goes, if Germany holds Paris and the allies strat bomb that hex and blow up a factory can the German player blow up one of the blue factories to soak the loss? And if they are allowed to do this does that mean I can make them loose three build points per turn? Hit me back thanks[:)]

[michaelbaldur]

simple ...
 
Target hexes
A target hex can be any hex that contains an enemy controlled usable factory. A factory is usable if the controlling side could transport a resource to it and, if they did, it would produce a production point (see 13.6.1).
 
so no ..... only the red factory is usable ......

[oscar72se]

Well, I would like to point out that there is a huge difference between production points and build points... Build points is what you get after any production multiples. So for Germany in 1944, one production point yields 1.5 build points... Keep in mind that you bomb production points and not build points.

[macgregor]

Can the Germans blow up a blue factory to soak the loss? If a factory is lost from strat bombing that hex, that is what happens. It's not optional. Now I have a question. Since a factory loss is worse than a production point loss, does Germany then still lose production points even if it has more factories than it needs to convert it's resource points?

[sajbalk]

Only the red stacks are usable to the enemy. So, Germany can get, at most, one production point out of Paris.

If Germany has more usable factories than resources, it matters not for strategic bombing. Even if Germany had but one resource, if the resource could possibly make it to Paris, Paris is a legitimate target.

[Chaylaton]

Ok the question is can Germany take a factory hit on a factory they can not use, because based on the fact they they can only recieve one production point from Paris.  So does a destroyed factory result mu t be a loss on a usable factory.  To elimnate all usable factories out of France you would have to destroy 7 factories, that seems nuts.  I understand normaly for example Berlin they would loose a the blue then the red, but in Paris the other 2 factories are not active. 

[oscar72se]

From RaW, 11.7:
If the target is an oil hex, that number of oil resources is lost from the hex for the turn.
If the target is a factory hex, that number of production points will be lost from the factory owner’s production point total for the turn (see 13.6.3).
You can’t lose more production points in a turn than there are usable factories in the hex or more oil than there are oil resources there.

So, according to the rules it doesn't matter if Germany is able to use the factory or not. As long as they are usable the factories are eligble targets...

/Oscar

[Shannon V. OKeets]

For those with a despearte interest in this, here's the MWIF code:
=========

Code: Select all

 // ****************************************************************************
 // ProdTCount subtracts the production points already lost.
 // ****************************************************************************
   ProdCount := Map.FactoryList.FactoryProductionCount[TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y];
   ProdTCount :=
     Map.FactoryList.FactoryTargetProductionCount[TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y];
 
   Pts := Msg_SBRo.PtsDestroyed;         // # of points lost.
   Destroyed := Msg_SBRo.FacsDestroyed;  // # of factories/facilities destroyed.
   EffectiveRoll := Msg_SBRo.Roll + Msg_SBRo.DieMod;
   AddResult(Format(rsStrategicBombingRoll, [EffectiveRoll, Msg_SBRo.Roll,
                                             Msg_SBRo.DieMod]));
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Effect point losses.
 // ****************************************************************************
   if Pts = 0 then NoEffect         // No damage.
   else
   begin
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Factories lose production points first.
 // ****************************************************************************
     if ProdTCount > 0 then
     begin
       P := Min([ProdTCount, Pts]); // # of production points lost.
 
       if P > 0 then
       begin                        // Record the production loss.
         Dec(Pts, P);               // Reduce the losses that remain to be taken.
       	Inc(FH.ProductionLost[FH.Owner.Value], P);
         AddResult(Format(rsProductionLost, [P, PluralString(rsPointWas,
                          rsPointsWere, P)]));
         Inc(M.ProductionLost, P);
         Inc(EntryNumber);
         PtsDestroyedCnt := P;      // Points lost for the turn.
         SetGRL(RLID_SBPL);         // Production point losses.
         UseGRL(RLID_SBPL);         // Executes Nada.
       end;
     end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Synthetic oil plants lose points second.
 // ****************************************************************************
     if OptRules.SyntheticOilPlants and (Pts <> 0) then
     begin
       P := 0;
 
       repeat
         U := MapStack.FindUnit(UFilterSynthOilUnitNotLost);
 
         if U <> nil then
         begin
         	U.SynthOilLost := True;
 
           TSynthOilResource(Map.ResourceList.Search(TSynthOilResource,
             TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y)).ProductionLost := True;
 
           Inc(P);
           Dec(Pts);
         end;
       until (Pts = 0) or (U = nil);
 
       if P > 0 then
       begin
         Inc(M.SynthOilLost, P);
         AddResult(Format(rsSynthOilLost, [P, PluralString(rsResourceWas,
                          rsResourcesWere, P)]));
         Inc(EntryNumber);
         PtsDestroyedCnt := P;       // Points lost for the turn.
         SetGRL(RLID_SBSL);          // Synthetic oil point losses.
         UseGRL(RLID_SBSL);          // Executes Nada.
       end;
     end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Oil resources lose points third.
 // ****************************************************************************
     if (Pts <> 0) and Map.Oil[TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y] then
     begin
       P := Map.OilProduction[TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y];
 
       if P > 0 then
       begin
         P := Min([P - Map.ResourceList.TotalProductionLost(TargetHex.X,
                                                            TargetHex.Y), Pts]);
 
         if P > 0 then
         begin
           Dec(Pts, P);
           Map.ResourceList.LoseProduction(TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y, P);
           Inc(M.OilLost, P);
           AddResult(Format(rsOilLost, [P, PluralString(rsResourceWas,
                            rsResourcesWere, P)]));
           Inc(EntryNumber);
           PtsDestroyedCnt := P;       // Points lost for the turn.
           SetGRL(RLID_SBOL);          // Oil resource losses.
           UseGRL(RLID_SBOL);          // Executes Nada.
         end;
       end;
     end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Saved oil points are lost fourth.
 // ****************************************************************************
     if Pts > 0 then
     begin
       SU := MapStack.OilPointsUnit;
 
       if SU <> nil then
       begin
         P := Min([SU.Points, Pts]);
         Dec(Pts, P);
         Inc(M.SavedOilLost, P);
         AddResult(Format(rsSavedOilLost, [P,	PluralString(rsPointWas,
                          rsPointsWere, P)]));
 
         if P = SU.Points then
         begin
           CurrAirAttackStack.DeleteIndexOf(SU);
           GSVGround.SVStack.DeleteIndexOf(SU);
         end;
 
         MainForm.PointsChange(SU, SU.Points - P);
         Inc(EntryNumber);
         PtsDestroyedCnt := P;       // Points lost for the turn.
         SetGRL(RLID_SBOS);          // Saved oil point losses.
         UseGRL(RLID_SBOS);          // Executes Nada.
       end;
     end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Saved build points are lost fifth.
 // ****************************************************************************
     if Pts > 0 then
     begin
       SU := MapStack.BuildPointsUnit;
 
       if SU <> nil then
       begin
         P := Min([SU.Points, Pts]);
         AddResult(Format(rsSavedBuildPointsLost,
                          [P, PluralString(rsPointWas, rsPointsWere, P)]));
         if P = SU.Points then
         begin
           CurrAirAttackStack.DeleteIndexOf(SU);
           GSVGround.SVStack.DeleteIndexOf(SU);
         end;
 
         MainForm.PointsChange(SU, SU.Points - P);
         Inc(M.BuildPointsLost, P);
         Inc(EntryNumber);
         PtsDestroyedCnt := P;       // Points lost for the turn.
         SetGRL(RLID_SBBS);          // Saved build point losses.
         UseGRL(RLID_SBBS);          // Executes Nada.
       end;
     end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // End of production point losses.  Effect factory/facility losses.
 // Factories get destroyed first.
 // ****************************************************************************
     if OptRules.FactoryConstruction and
        (ProdCount > 0) and
        (Destroyed > 0) then
     begin
 // ****************************************************************************
 // We can't destroy any more than the # of productive factories in the hex.
 // ****************************************************************************
       P := Min([ProdCount, Destroyed]);
       PCounter := 0;                 // No facilities destroyed so far.
       FDCounter := 0;                // No factories destroyed.
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Destory green factories first, if they are usable.
 // ****************************************************************************
       while Map.FactoryList.FactoryHexUsable[TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y] and
             (FH.GreenFact > 0) and
             (PCounter < P) do
       begin
         Dec(FH.GreenFact);         // Destroy a green factory.
         Inc(PCounter);             // 1 factory destroyed.
         Inc(FDCounter);            // 1 factory destroyed.
         FH.GreenDestroyed := True; // Display a destroyed factory in the hex.
       end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Write an entry to the game record log for destroyed facilities.
 // ****************************************************************************
       if FDCounter > 0 then
       begin
         Inc(EntryNumber);
         FacsDestroyedCnt := FDCounter;  // Facilities destroyed.
         FDCounter := 0;                 // Reset counter.
         SetGRL(RLID_SBGF);
         UseGRL(RLID_SBGF);              // Executes Nada.
       end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Damage blue factories next, if they are usable.
 // ****************************************************************************
       while Map.FactoryList.FactoryHexUsable[TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y] and
             ((FH.BlueFact - FH.BlueDamaged) > 0) and
              (PCounter < P) do
       begin
         Inc(FH.BlueDamaged);       // Damage a blue factory.
         Inc(PCounter);             // 1 factory damaged.
         Inc(FDCounter);            // 1 factory damaged.
       end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Write an entry to the game record log for destroyed facilities.
 // ****************************************************************************
       if FDCounter > 0 then
       begin
         Inc(EntryNumber);
         FacsDestroyedCnt := FDCounter;  // Facilities destroyed.
         FDCounter := 0;                 // Reset counter.
         SetGRL(RLID_SBBF);
         UseGRL(RLID_SBBF);              // Executes Nada.
       end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Only as a last resort, damage red factories.
 // ****************************************************************************
       while ((FH.RedFact - FH.RedDamaged) > 0) and (PCounter < P) do
       begin
         Inc(FH.RedDamaged);   // Damage a red factory.
         Inc(PCounter);        // 1 factory damaged.
         Inc(FDCounter);       // 1 factory damaged.
       end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Write an entry to the game record log for destroyed facilities.
 // ****************************************************************************
       if FDCounter > 0 then
       begin
         Inc(EntryNumber);
         FacsDestroyedCnt := FDCounter;  // Facilities destroyed.
         SetGRL(RLID_SBRF);
         UseGRL(RLID_SBRF);              // Executes Nada.
       end;
 
       MapWindows.RedrawHex(TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y);
       Inc(M.FactoriesDestroyed, PCounter);
       AddResult(Format(rsSBDestroyed, [PCounter, PluralString(rsFactoryWas,
                        rsFactoriesWere, PCounter)]));
     end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Synthetic oil plants get destroyed second (after factories).
 // ****************************************************************************
     if OptRules.SyntheticOilPlants then
     begin
       if Destroyed > 0 then
       begin
         P := 0;
         LocalPlayerOnly := True;
 
         try
           repeat
             U := MapStack.FindUnit(UFilterSynthOilUnit);
 
             if U <> nil then
             begin
               PrepareMoveForcePool(U);
               Dec(Destroyed);
               Inc(P);
             end;
 
           until (Destroyed = 0) or (U = nil);
         finally
           LocalPlayerOnly := False;
         end;
 
         if P > 0 then
         begin
           MapWindows.RedrawStack(TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y);
           Inc(M.SynthOilDestroyed, P);
           AddResult(Format(rsSynthOilDestroyed, [P, PluralString(rsUnitWas,
                            rsUnitsWere, P)]));
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Write an entry to the game record log for destroyed facilities.
 // ****************************************************************************
           Inc(EntryNumber);
           FacsDestroyedCnt := P;  // Facilities destroyed.
           SetGRL(RLID_SBSO);
           UseGRL(RLID_SBSO);      // Executes Nada.
         end;
       end;
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Oil resources get destroyed third.
 // ****************************************************************************
       if Destroyed > 0 then
       begin
         P := Map.OilProduction[TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y];
 
         if P > 0 then
         begin
           P := Min([P, Destroyed]);
 
           for Counter := 1 to P do Map.OilDamage(TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y);
 
           Map.ResourceList.LoseProduction(TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y,
             Min([Map.ResourceList.TotalProductionLost(TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y),
                  Map.OilProduction[TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y]]));
 
           MapWindows.RedrawHex(TargetHex.X, TargetHex.Y);
           Inc(M.OilDestroyed, P);
           AddResult(Format(rsOilDestroyed, [P, PluralString(rsResourceWas,
                            rsResourcesWere, P)]));
 // ****************************************************************************
 // Write an entry to the game record log for destroyed facilities.
 // ****************************************************************************
           Inc(EntryNumber);
           FacsDestroyedCnt := P;  // Facilities destroyed.
           SetGRL(RLID_SBOH);
           UseGRL(RLID_SBOH);      // Executes Nada.
         end;
       end;
     end;
   end;
 
 

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Chaylaton

Ok the question is can Germany take a factory hit on a factory they can not use, because based on the fact they they can only recieve one production point from Paris. So does a destroyed factory result mu t be a loss on a usable factory. To elimnate all usable factories out of France you would have to destroy 7 factories, that seems nuts. I understand normaly for example Berlin they would loose a the blue then the red, but in Paris the other 2 factories are not active.

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

From RaW, 11.7:
If the target is an oil hex, that number of oil resources is lost from the hex for the turn.
If the target is a factory hex, that number of production points will be lost from the factory owner’s production point total for the turn (see 13.6.3).
You can’t lose more production points in a turn than there are usable factories in the hex or more oil than there are oil resources there.

So, according to the rules it doesn't matter if Germany is able to use the factory or not. As long as they are usable the factories are eligble targets...

/Oscar

Yes the fact is who can use the blue factories? Not France since it is in Occupied France. Not anyone else since it is in the French home country. Not Germany since it is blue. The only useable factory by Germany in Paris is the red one. If it is Strat Bombed successfully the Germans lose a production point. If successfully and with a star result, the Germans lose a production point and the factory stops producing in future turns until it gets repaired. The only way the Germans would not lose a production point is if they could not trace a resource to the factory at the time it is being bombed. In that case, actually the Allies cannot Strat Bomb it, as it is an invalid target hex.

If it was bombed successfully and then later cut off from getting a resource (even if there are less German resources than factories) then the Germans still lose the production point, plus have one less factory to produce with.

For example, Germans have a PM of 1.5, 28 resources and 28 working factories. Paris red gets bombed successfully. Subsequently it gets surrounded by Allied ZOC. At turn-end Germany will have 28 resources and 27 working factories but will receive only 26 production points and build with 39.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
The only useable factory by Germany in Paris is the red one. If it is Strat Bombed successfully the Germans lose a production point. If successfully and with a star result, the Germans lose a production point and the factory stops producing in future turns until it gets repaired.

Present turn too.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
The only useable factory by Germany in Paris is the red one. If it is Strat Bombed successfully the Germans lose a production point. If successfully and with a star result, the Germans lose a production point and the factory stops producing in future turns until it gets repaired.

Present turn too.

Of course.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

The only useable factory by Germany in Paris is the red one. If it is Strat Bombed successfully the Germans lose a production point. If successfully and with a star result, the Germans lose a production point and the factory stops producing in future turns until it gets repaired.

[/quote]

I usually do not repair the red factory in Paris once it is destroyed because it is a difficult factory to protect from strat bombing.

When I strat bomb as an ally I try to make sure I do not destroy the Paris factory. It is nice to make Germany lose a production point each turn by bombing Paris. And even more joy if he sends fighters to Paris to protect it since I then get to shot down some fighters.

[oscar72se]

Harry Rowland clarifies this rule in the downloadable FAQ found on the ADG-site:

Question:
RAW says "A factory is usable if the
controlling side could transport a resource
to it and, if they did, it would produce a
production point (see 13.6.1)."
What is meant by "could" here?

a) has a path by which a resource can be
shipped to the hex.

b) Is permitted by 13.6.1 to ship a resource
to it.

Answer:
"Could" means that you are in a position
AT THAT MOMENT to transport a
resource there (e.g. convoy points in
position if necessary).

/Oscar

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: oscar72se

Harry Rowland clarifies this rule in the downloadable FAQ found on the ADG-site:

Question:
RAW says "A factory is usable if the
controlling side could transport a resource
to it and, if they did, it would produce a
production point (see 13.6.1)."
What is meant by "could" here?

a) has a path by which a resource can be
shipped to the hex.

b) Is permitted by 13.6.1 to ship a resource
to it.

Answer:
"Could" means that you are in a position
AT THAT MOMENT to transport a
resource there (e.g. convoy points in
position if necessary).

/Oscar

EDIT: With Patrice's help and Harry Rowland's continuing support, MWIF's Rules as Coded incorporates all the clarifications and corrections from ADG as of 1/1/2009.


From Rules as Coded:
===

[Missouri Rebel]

When Mr. OKeets posts his code to the forum, that code runs the length of the page covering up all successive text by others. It is has even reached this text box that I am typing in. Is it just me or others as well?


This happens in ALL threads btw. Not just this one.


mo reb

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel

When Mr. OKeets posts his code to the forum, that code runs the length of the page covering up all successive text by others. It is has even reached this text box that I am typing in. Is it just me or others as well?

I have no trouble with it.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Missouri Rebel

When Mr. OKeets posts his code to the forum, that code runs the length of the page covering up all successive text by others. It is has even reached this text box that I am typing in. Is it just me or others as well?

I have no trouble with it.

Noproblem with IE. Must be your Firefox thing.

[Chaylaton]

I thank you for all the feed back this should resolve the discussion in our current board game.
 
 

[brian brian]

happens to Safari too

[Ullern]

I have that problem too.

I read "hidden" posts by quoting a reply, then cancel after I read it.