Privateers

[gdpsnake1979]

I believe that frigates should ALWAYAS engage privateers regardless of diplomatic conditions at the time. They are after all, Pirates and how else can a Navy eliminate the pirate threat (especially in the med) w/o being able to engage privateers of a nation when not at war.
I bring this up becasue of the major and (especially) minor nation privateers that run around and ruin my economy and I can't stop them because I'm not at war with that country.
AAARRRRRGG! Pirates! Must hang them all........

[Mike Parker]

I have kinda wondered about that myself.  I am not an expert on the use of Privateers in this era, but what I do know (or at least think I know) is that a nations privateers were issued Letters of Marque in order to prey upon another nations vessels.  Issuance of such letters were not always accompanied by awar, but it was certainly a step on the road.  It most certainly meant the other nations patrol frigates would pound such vessels if intercepted war or no war.

and if such a vessel DIDN'T have a letter of marque and it was on the high seas chasing merchants and confiscating cargo, it was subject to the navies of ANY nation as a rank pirate!

I don' think they should always be engaged, they are after all trying to hide from frigates, and often the vessels used for privateering were usually such that they could more easily escape Frigates, while still being able to take on a merchantman.  But that they are unmolestable outside of war seems a bit much.  There should be a state of hostilities such as "Issue Letters of Marque and Reprisal aganst [nation]" then your privateers would operate but only against that nation, but also they would be subject to that nations frigates and some chance of being intercepted.

[Mus]

Privateers do not equal pirates.
 
Also Im going to have to look more closely because I havent noticed privateers from countries Im not at war with taking goods from trade routes between me and another party when they arent at war with either.  I have seen them take goods when they were at war with one party or another.

[Mike Parker]

Of course Privateers do not equal Pirates, but the only one that would say that with much convictions would be a Barrister in the employ of a Privateer Captain being brought up on Pirating charges by her majesties courts As happened with at least two famous British Privateers.

The distinction between Privateers and Pirates exists but it is a fine line indeed... and whatever the case may be Privateer units in this game act like both vis a vis.

They act like Pirates in the sense that regardless of nationality they prey upon any trade in the sea zone even the privateers 'sponsor' is effected.  The ONLY way we can assume that privateers are acting like privateers and explain the behavior seems to me to say that privateers are issued letters of Marque and Reprisal against EVERY NATION IN THE GAME including minors and oddly enough your own.

The act like privateers in the sense that they seem to be immune to the actions of Naval patrols.  A privateer that preyed upon merchant shipping was subject to being boarded by the Navies of neutral parties.  If the privateer captain could not produce a valid letter of Marque to explain his predations he would be treated as a rank pirate.  In fact a privateer captain that did not have proper 'documents' would generally flee before any potential boarding vessel.  In fact there are many reported incidents where supposedly legitimate privateer vessels were fired upon when they fled from neutrals.

Its not very illuminating to say Privateers and Pirates are not the same... I think we all know that, but the point is they are not very dissimilar when one looks at history, with not an inconsiderable number of privateers eventually turning pirate.  And in addition the rules of this game seems to treat privateers much as pirates in how they affect trade in a sea area.

There is supposed to be a change in the upcoming patch that will have Frigates begin prosecuting Privateers, that is one step in the right directions, but to really get to it the institution of something that represents letters of marque should be implimented.  Be that a new political state or what have you, to have privateers molest all merchants on the high seas is too much I would think.

Its not a game breaker at all.. its only in the minor area of problems I would estimate.. but it would be nice if it were done differently.  I should say its only minor if the new patch does indeed begin to prosecute privateers.

Oh also if the new patch is implimented in such a way that ALL Frigates prosecute ALL Privateers (with the exception of your own Frigates against your Privateers) then even further is it established that Privateers are being treated as Pirates.

edit: I would like to add my experience has been with the simple economy so far. I have just started using the advanced economy so I do not know if privateers steal trade goods from anyone or just from those their sponsor country is at war with. But I will say even if it does work as the latter then it would be something of an error as it was not always the case that War was required for Letters of Marque to be issued. I will look at this in the advanced economy asap... I am more concerned currently with trying to figure out why as Swededn I can seemingly produce something on the order of 20 wool a month yet have 0 textile prduction?!

[Randomizer]

Very well thought out and balanced post Mr. Parker!
 
I actually have no real issues with the way privateers are handled for the simple reason that they represent, in a small way, the natural attrition that was endemic to the world of the sailing ship.  By way of example during the CoG-EE era the RN lost eleven warships to enemy action and well over 300 to 'other causes'.  Merchant ships had privateers and pirates praying on them as well as the huge numbers of ship losses in the "Other Causes" column.  My take is that behind the scenes where it is invisible to the player lurks the system insurance underwriters and ship brokers that produce income (revenue from friendly privateers) and cost production (losses to enemy privateers and other causes).  Late 18th Century marine insurance had already grown quite sophisticated and was a very big business in England, Holland and the Hanseatic ports at least.
 
Patching it as discussed above would be nice but the current system does not offend the senses at all.
 
Best Regards

[Mike Parker]

I agree its not horrible.  I would like to see the frigates start chasing privateers and am looking forward to the latest patch for this amongst other things.
 
I hadn't thought about the 'other causes' part of it, since naval vessels do not suffer any attrition at all from such things its not falacious to assume the effects of privateers in part balance the lack of environmental loss to your ships (of course its never negligence on the part of your crews )
 

[Randomizer]

Actually what I would like to see is a system where merchant ships are generated free of cost as a function of the number of ports that you own and docks that you have developed.  I resent (kidding) using government money and material to buy merchant ships for the private sector!  More seriously I think that the revenue from sea zones system is an elegent and simple solution capable of reproducing many of the aspects of maritime trade in that period.  Only I do not think that it goes far enough since merchants are expensive to build and (based on my admittedly limited experiance to date) unless you are playing England there is really little incentive to build them in quantity.
 
One can imagine all sorts of colourful naval things to do in support of the merchant marine like convoy escort for example, a typical task for the 4th Rates.
 
Besides, capturing enemy merchants would give your detached frigates something else to do.
 
Best Regards