AI is cheating???

[denty12]

Hello, I am enjoying COG : EE

I think AI is cheating about economy.

In normal difficulty(advaced economy),

the resources of AI was increased very fast.



In my game, as FRANCE 1796,

Prussia earned +200~300 money every turn!(Other resources also increased highly)

When I played as Prussia, I earns +60~70 money per turn at best.

Britain, Austria, Spain ... every nation earned much money and resources...per turn.



I played COG.

I think I understand economy of COG well.








AI is cheating?

Is it normal?

[morganbj]

The AI makes pretty good decisions when it comes to the economy.  The only countries that have a difficult time with money are Russia and Turkey, from my experience.  Perhaps Spain, too.  If you try to build your economy too fast by buying developments as Russia, for example, you can really have a hard time accumulating money.
 
Also, the economy is a little different than it was under COG, but cash is usually a little easier to come by as France and Britain.  Prussia and Austria also don't have too much problem, but they tend to lose wars a lot which sets them back every couple of years.

[Mus]

Actually I am seeing weird things as well, with even the smaller powers like Prussia and Sweden having thousands in money stockpiled after a year or so of play but it doesnt seem to effect their ability to develop their provinces, produce bigger armies and maintain them.

It seems to be in an amount that would exceed "making good decisions" and I would request that it be looked at.

I think something isnt working correctly. 

PS It could just be that the small amount of help the AI gets at normal is enough over the course of 10 or more turns to add up to significant amounts. More insight as to what help the AI gets in what areas at what difficulty level might help.

[denty12]

Mus, that's the point.
 
All AI nations increase resources at enormous speed.
 
After serveral turns, small country like Sweden stockpiles much resources than human France.
 
I think it is unreasonable rate.
 
 

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: denty12

Mus, that's the point.

All AI nations increase resources at enormous speed.

After serveral turns, small country like Sweden stockpiles much resources than human France.

I think it is unreasonable rate.

Yeah I agree. Im seeing massive amounts of surplus of all resources in even the smallest nations. I think something isnt working right.

[ericbabe]

The AI receives an economic material bonus according to difficulty.  It is fairly standard practice to tie economic bonuses for the AI to game difficulty level -- the Civilization games use this method more pronouncedly than we do, for instance (and they have more full-time programmers on staff than we have part-time staffer).

If you don't want the AI to receive any material bonuses, play on the easiest couple levels.

[denty12]

OK,
 
It was programmed...like Paradox games.
 
I will do my best at normal difficulty.^^

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

The AI receives an economic material bonus according to difficulty.  It is fairly standard practice to tie economic bonuses for the AI to game difficulty level -- the Civilization games use this method more pronouncedly than we do, for instance (and they have more full-time programmers on staff than we have part-time staffer).

If you don't want the AI to receive any material bonuses, play on the easiest couple levels.

OK Thanks. I didnt realize that was the case even at normal.

[Anthropoid]

You can never trust a game dev . . . erm, I mean "AI," they _always_ cheat. Its like its compulsive . . . And whatever you do, DON'T give them a right of passage! [:D]

[morganbj]

After thinking about this for a while, perhaps what you're seeing is that the AI generally doesn't develop their economy the way that humans do, thereby allowing accumulations of most resources (assuming that you're not playing at a higher difficulty).  In fact, I'm not sure exactly what the AI development management process is.  When I take over a province, I usually find that Guns and Walls are in good shape, and maybe Docks, but everything else languishes.  Or, maybe that's just a faulty perception.  What do others see?
 

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

After thinking about this for a while, perhaps what you're seeing is that the AI generally doesn't develop their economy the way that humans do, thereby allowing accumulations of most resources (assuming that you're not playing at a higher difficulty).

That could be true. It seems like human players build more farms and banks in a methodical way and also more containers, in an effort to create and sustain (through more food and money) larger armies.

Are the material advantages the AI receives at any given difficulty level listed anywhere?

[barbarossa2]

Just curious, can one possibly allow players to set the attrition rate and the economic "cheat" level for the AI nations separately?

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

The AI receives an economic material bonus according to difficulty.  It is fairly standard practice to tie economic bonuses for the AI to game difficulty level -- the Civilization games use this method more pronouncedly than we do, for instance (and they have more full-time programmers on staff than we have part-time staffer).

If you don't want the AI to receive any material bonuses, play on the easiest couple levels.

This is hogwash.

The bonuses in CoG:EE are far out of line with standard strategy game practice. And what's more, they are occuring at the normal difficulty level. Giving the AI a slight boost here and there would be subtle and unnoticeable. These bonuses are enormous and throw the entire world economy out of whack.

I wish I had seen this before I purchased the game. I feel like a complete and total dupe. This kind of cutting corners makes its pretty clear that CoG:EE is a PBEM game exclusively and the AI is tacked on to sell it as though there is a single player component.

Since I'm stuck with this thing, what other effects are there to playing on a low difficulty? Is the AI "dumber"? What is the first difficulty that can be played without the AI cheating like this?

[Anthropoid]

I find the AI challenging. Maybe you're just too brilliant for such pathetic excuses for game Jscott?

[jscott991]

The AI IS challenging.  It's cheating.

You've mischaracterized my position entirely. The AI isn't too easy. I'm angry I can't duplicate it's economic performance because it is cheating.

I don't want a challenge at the expense of everything. I want a fair game.

[Erik Rutins]

jscott,

Try it on the easiest level and see what you think about its performance. If you don't want it getting any bonuses, the lowest levels are where it does not. The normal level gives it some bonuses to make the game more challenging, but it is not brain dead without those bonuses. It plays a pretty good strategic and tactical game, superior to most wargames I've played.

Regards,

- Erik

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

The AI IS challenging.  It's cheating.

You've mischaracterized my position entirely. The AI isn't too easy. I'm angry I can't duplicate it's economic performance because it is cheating.

I don't want a challenge at the expense of everything. I want a fair game.

Oh! Sorry JScott, I misunderstood what you were getting at.

Yeah, if it is too hard, play it on easier difficulties. Also could give yourself power boosts etc.

I remember I played Civ3 _FOR YEARS!_ on one notch below parity with the AI, and had a helluva lot of fun! [:D] No shame in that. Figuring out how these things 'tick' can take time, and after all, it is supposed to be 'fun' not 'work' or 'traumatizing' [;)]

[ericbabe]

ORIGINAL: jscott991
This is hogwash.

I do not normally make a habit of responding to forum posters who are overtly rude to me, however I do not want people to form the wrong impression about our AI based upon the personal insults you have leveled against me.

I've studied strategic AI systems in many, many games, and it is simply not true that the material bonuses in COG:EE are out of line with those in many of the systems at which I have looked. Other systems may do a better job of hiding those bonuses from the player perhaps.

As it is now, even on the simplest levels, the AI is quite comparable to other strategic AI systems.

[jscott991]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

jscott,

Try it on the easiest level and see what you think about its performance. If you don't want it getting any bonuses, the lowest levels are where it does not. The normal level gives it some bonuses to make the game more challenging, but it is not brain dead without those bonuses. It plays a pretty good strategic and tactical game, superior to most wargames I've played.

Regards,

- Erik

This is the key issue.

Is the difficulty increase only related to AI cheats (the bonuses)? If I play on the lower levels, will the AI perform in the same manner, but simply not have the bonuses?

If so, that is better than having a truncated AI that only plays at its best once it starts receiving cheats.

Players hate cheats, by the way. This is a major issue with any strategy game. When Paradox announced the shortcuts it had to implement for EU3, they were vilified (so much so, I think most have been taken out). I refuse to believe that my criticisms are so shocking. And, as I've pointed out in every post, the problems is the cheats are occuring on the NORMAL difficulty level, when everything except one obscure post by the designer in an older thread say they occur ABOVE NORMAL.

That is what irritates me. I would not have bought the game if I had known that the cheats occured at almost all difficulty levels.

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

ORIGINAL: jscott991
This is hogwash.

I do not normally make a habit of responding to forum posters who are overtly rude to me, however I do not want people to form the wrong impression about our AI based upon the personal insults you have leveled against me.

I've studied strategic AI systems in many, many games, and it is simply not true that the material bonuses in COG:EE are out of line with those in many of the systems at which I have looked. Other systems may do a better job of hiding those bonuses from the player perhaps.

As it is now, even on the simplest levels, the AI is quite comparable to other strategic AI systems.

There are no personal insults in anything I've written. I maintain, and will continue to maintain, that the bonuses CoG:EE is granting on the normal difficulty levels are out of line with any strategy game of its type that I've played. There is nothing comparable in any Paradox strategy game that I own (Victoria, the EU series, Crusader Kings) to just massive resource dumps that are so obvious they show up on the basic information screen. Stardock strategy games, especially the Gal Civ series, maintain vehemently that they employ no cheats whatsoever. If you choose to compare CoG to pseudo-historical strategy games like Total War and Civilization, then you produce an inaccurate picture. CoG sells itself as something quite different from those more abstract strategy games.

What's more, these bonuses are not explained ACCURATELY anywhere in the game's documentation. They are hidden and it is even stated that occur only ABOVE NORMAL.

If you made it clear the extent to which the AI requires bonuses to compete, I believe fewer single player gamers would buy the game.

[Erik Rutins]

The fact remains there is a level (the lowest one) where the AI gets no resource bonuses and it is otherwise no different. If the bonuses really bother you and you wish to judge the AI without those bonuses, please play at the lowest level and then get back to us with your opinion. The AI itself is frankly, in my experience, much smarter with or without bonuses than most strategic/tactical AIs I've played against.