Captured ships turn to timber way too often

[Ursa MAior]

Historically a large percentage of captured ships were put in use (around 40-50%). Unless of course a big storm came like after Trafalgar. In CoGEE it is only arond 10% is it intentional?

[ericbabe]

Do you have a reference for the 40-50% number? I had looked for data on this, but couldn't find anything along these lines.

In lieu of better data, I put together my own numbers based on the largest fleet actions in the period:

* Trafalgar: 17 ships captured, 0 used in service
* Camperdown: 11 captured, 0 used in service
* Glorious First of June: 6 captured, 3 used in service
* Battle of the Nile: 9 captured, 5 used in service
* Copenhagen: 12 captured, 1 used in service (the Holsteen)
* Second Copenhagen: all 23 of the captured gunboats had to be abandoned (but the game doesn't have gunboats, so we'll ignore these); of the 15 captured SOTL's that returned to England, only 4 were used in service, one of which seems to have been confined to harbor service.
* Cape St Vincent: 4 ships captured, ?? not sure how many were used in service: the San Jose was kept in service, the San Nicolas was reclassified as a prison hulk (which I would say removes it from the game), not sure what happened to Salvador del Mundo and San Isidro.

Discounting Cape St Vincent, it looks as though only 13 of the 70 captured ships from these major fleet actions were actually returned to blue water service. That's about 19%. The COG:EE rule is 20%, comparable to what my research, outlined above, had indicated.

Do you know whether the 40-50% number is just for SOTL's/frigates, or does it include smaller ships like sloops and brigs? It might be the case that smaller captured ships were more likely to be returned to service. It's also possible that including many more smaller actions might tend to include results that tend in a different direction.

I should also add that when we had play-tested higher capture rates (I think we tried 40% and 33%), testers tended to think these results were too high.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

not sure what happened to Salvador del Mundo and San Isidro.

Salvador del Mundo is a 1st/2nd Rate that shows up in in the English OOB if that helps jog the memory. I have it in my 1796 PBEM game English OOB right now, a year before the battle in which it was captured.

[:D]

I think the percentage on this is fine. Just think how many ships in game are hammered into bloody sawdust by the time they strike.

An alternative would be to allow the player to pay some kind of large material cost to choose which ships to repair and refit for service and which to send to the breakers, but probably too complicated for its worth to implement.

[Ursa MAior]

ericbabe
My main source is N.A.M. Rodgers Command of the ocean. While it does not specify actual numbers in the second part dealing with the ships (IIRC titled science versus practice ships between 1700ish and 1815 or something) he states that great number of prizes were put in service rerigged. Since the book is about british naval power it rarely discusses anything below sixth rates. So it is probably true for frigetas and SOLs. If I might raise your esteemed attention that if you take out from your database Trafalgar which was followed by a huge storm, thus sinking most prizes and Copenhagen which was not a classical naval engagement the numbers are significantly different. Apart from the above there were a number of smaller clashes say the chase and capture of Adm Dumanoir's squadron after Trafalgar with 4-7 SOLs on both sides. Or Agagmemnon (with Nelson) vs french SOLs (IIRC two) which also ended with the opponents captured. Of course due to the "special" british system ("mothballing" most of the fleet in peacetime) these prizes were not always refitted as of british standards.

rgrds

 As of CoGEE percentages in my limited game experience and from Hard Sarge's AAR's ths number is rather below 10% than around 20% Of course it is possible that I hae not seen enough yet. 

[moose1999]

I like the return-rate of captured ships very much.
It makes you value the returned ships that much more and keeps the game from getting too easy.
Not sure about the historical values, but for gameplay I think the current ones are very suitable.

[Ursa MAior]

Dunno if it is possible gamewise, but a small subroutin (or what my programmin skills are next to none [;)]) should calculate it based on the damage of surrendered ships. Above say 60% hull dmg no ships would be eligible even for timber.

[Anthropoid]

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

I like the return-rate of captured ships very much.
It makes you value the returned ships that much more and keeps the game from getting too easy.
Not sure about the historical values, but for gameplay I think the current ones are very suitable.

I agree 100%.

[Randomizer]

I doubt that damage was the sole or even major critera for retaining prizes as warships.  Differing design requirements, gun calibres, manpower and many other factors would probably determine whether a prize was retained for fleet service, relegated to hulk status or scrapped so her salvagable (and well aged) timbers could be used for new construction.  There was always a need for prison hulks, supply hulks, shear hulks, school ships and barrack ships and these duties were the fate of most prize ships which avoided the breakers.  I agree with Briny and Anthropoid and think the system in place is reasonable as well as realistic.
 
Best Regards