A Possible "War Lapses" bug...

[barbarossa2]

This is the second definite "War Lapses" bug I have seen.

I have just sent 60,000 extremely high quality troops to Mecklenburg. Last turn, I issued orders to "sneak attack" them and move in. I opened my turn just now and see in the political report that, yes...I did sneak attack them.

However, a few lines down, before my conquest is complete, and just weeks after the DoW, it indicates that the conflict has "lapsed". This would indicate a status of peace I believe. Yet, when I right click on Mecklenburg, there is no "declare war" option.

In another thread (Polish War Problems), I also reported on a "lapsed war" anomaly which didn't make any sense. In that case, Austria had been reducing one city after another in Poland (Sweden's protectorate), but for some reason the war lapsed.

The "lapsed war" programming needs a good look.

The image below is attached for clarity. I swear underneath the popup menu over Mecklenburg, that there are 60,000 extremely high quality Swedish troops who JUST arrived.

ADDIT: OH WAIT! Is it possible that because Mecklenburg is now a Prussian protectorate, that "Mecklenburg" no longer exists in the brain of the program, and because of this it has "lapsed" and now I am at war with Prussia? (unfortunately, as I have NO intent of attacking Prussia). Even if this is the case, I think the programmers may need to re-think the way this is expressed.

[Russian Guard]

Normally in a case like this, you'll get a popup warning that Prussia (who took the Province as a Protectorate, obviously Mecklenburg asked Prussia for that) demands you cease your war against Mecklenburg (or else).

Did you not get a popup like that? If not, there might be a case where a specific sequence of events doesn't trigger the popup...

[barbarossa2]

It is a PBEM game.  And without a replay (which would be nice, but I understand an extra programming expense), these things are not so obvious.

[Russian Guard]

AHhhh, then that can be handled in your diplomatic relations settings - if you had unchecked "Aggressive" as relates Prussia, then there'd be no war, but your invasion of Mecky would of course lapse.

[barbarossa2]

Interesting, because I just checked to make sure, but I do not have "aggressive" checked against Prussia. [&:] Or anyone for that matter.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

Interesting, because I just checked to make sure, but I do not have "aggressive" checked against Prussia. [&:] Or anyone for that matter.

Damn.

OK. So if Prussia had their aggressiveness towards you checked it would have issued ultimatum and since you didnt have aggressiveness checked at that point you should have backed off and no war should have resulted. But it did.

I wonder if the fact it was a naval invasion and your troops may not have any way to vacate has anything to do with it?

The quick fix if war wasnt intended, the easiest fix is a cease fire. Same game example, Turkey invaded Montenegro and Austria formed a protectorate and issued ultimatum which I defied resulting in a war neither party wanted, although in that case we both had aggressiveness checked, unlike this one apparently.

[barbarossa2]

Well, as I understood it, I didn't think that I would back down if I had a stance of "non-aggressive".  As I understood it, it would automatically result in war ONLY if the player being offered the protectorate (Prussia in this case) had "aggressive" checked.  If he hadn't have had "aggressive" checked, as I understand it, Meckelenburg simply wouldn't have gotten a protector (or would it have gone to the next player in line?).  I need to take a look at the rules....

On page 191 of the rules, it doesn't state that if I am being "unaggressive" (e.g. do not have "aggressive" checked for Prussia) that I will back down if Prussia has selected "aggressive" for me. It really only says that people who check "aggressive" will issue ultimatums, etc. So I think that aspect of this problem may be WaD.

I think that the game can't retract my move and that's why I don't back down. Even though I am non-aggressive to Prussia. Imagine, there would have to be a bunch of extra coding which would return invading units to their initial locations (some across sea zones, etc.). So, I don't see how that is possible. Really. Unless every single unit which moved into the neutral were returned to it's initial position at the beginning of the turn.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

On page 191 of the rules, it doesn't state that if I am being "unaggressive" (e.g. do not have "aggressive" checked for Prussia) that I will back down if Prussia has selected "aggressive" for me. It really only says that people who check "aggressive" will issue ultimatums, etc. So I think that aspect of this problem may be WaD.

I suppose it could be WAD although it wouldnt make much sense.

It would make more sense if your aggressiveness posture had an effect on how you would respond to an ultimatum.

Otherwise the effect of an ultimatum issued for any reason will always be war, which makes them pointless. In that case checking aggressive should declare war in any situation rather than issue an ultimatum as they would have the same effect.

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

I think that the game can't retract my move and that's why I don't back down. Even though I am non-aggressive to Prussia.

Thats what I think is going on, as I said before. The naval movement cant be undone because its more complicated than a land move. There also isnt a nearby friendly province they could retreat into to comply with the ultimatum.

[barbarossa2]

I agree, it would be more interesting to have a system which took my stance into consideration as well.  But I don't know how I would ever be happy with any of the "retraction of invasion" moves the computer planned for me.

As it is, it appears to only take the "protector's" stance into consideration, leaving just two possibilities--completely dependent on the newly annointed protector.

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

I agree, it would be more interesting to have a system which took my stance into consideration as well.  But I don't know how I would ever be happy with any of the "retraction of invasion" moves the computer planned for me.

Check my edit. I believe it does, it just cant in this case because its a naval move maybe?

[IronWarrior]

I wonder if it had anything to do with being a "sneak attack"? Since you can move in and attack in the same turn I'd bet this is the reason.

[Hard Sarge]

overall, I am thinking the same thing, that Sneak Attack, should of started before the offer to back off came about, but the chance to become a protectorate would still happen, so..., it became a protectorate and you still attacked, but it belonged to Prussia, so a Act of War

a odd case, sneaks are very frowned upon by the AI Nations (PBEM is still a simi AI game)

[barbarossa2]

Well, I did pay for it with glory.  I am still learning the ropes here, which is why I am playing this first PBEM game as Sweden.

[Hard Sarge]

well, the Idea is, a sneak goes in on the turn it is declared (as long as you move the troops)

so, the way the system works, you declare, the minor gets a chance to call for help, if someone takes them up on it, they get a chance to tell you to back off, and then you get a chance to back off or keep going, but that is all looking at the whole thing takeing two turns to do, with a normal DOW on a minor

I think the whole thing making it odd, is the sneak attack

I could be wrong, but will need the big boys to show up and explain what happened

[barbarossa2]

Hard Sarge,

The only thing weird about this whole event to me now is the fact that after thoroughly reviewing the records for the turn, there seemed to have been no attack on the capitol of Mecklenburg by my forces.  They showed up in a state of war, and didn't attack the city.

Why?

The reason I was willing to accept a Glory penalty for the action was because I thought that declaring war at the beginning of the movement phase would allow me to carry out at least one attack on the city.

[Hard Sarge]

no

you would of needed to be in the province, before you declared the Sneak attack, for the seige attack to kick off, that happens before movement (and even then, not sure if the DOW would of kicked in yet)

hmmm, not really sure, I will play around with it some when I get back into my game

[barbarossa2]

Okay.  No problem. 
 
So explain to me how a "sneak attack" works and how it helps me?

[Hard Sarge]

overall, I would say, if you have troops in the province/s, then as soon as you declare, battle will start, before they can start moving around, but I would think this would be of more use, vs a Major, then vs a Minor

I had a chance, had two provinces side by side, I sneaked on one, and moved into the other, but it called for help, before I could declare, so what I wanted to see, didn't happen, but, Prussia paid dearly for comeing to the aid