Transport Fleets

[easterner]

Let me see if I have this straight. You don't want the transports that existed historically. But you want to transport 50,000 INF and 6000 horses that was never done historically?

[ndrose]

If you want to make the argument that no army of that size could be transported, OK. Maybe you're right; others are more qualified to answer that than I am. But that doesn't really speak to the discrepancy here, which is that you can transport a much *larger* army if it's in smaller corps, but all the ships in the world can't transport a single corps above a certain arbitrary size.

Look at it this way: with two full heavy fleets, you can transport, say, two French corps of 15i, 2c each, but not one French corps with 20i, 3c. I don't know about the laws of history, but that defies the laws of physics.

[easterner]

That it does but this is a game, not reality sim and fudge and abstract are work in unlike say WitP or UV from Matrix.  In original game a single SOL could transport 56,000  that was just as abstracted.

But it doesn't defy law of physics.  There are no divisional breakdowns here to show what you want; Physics aren't normally concerned with abstract representations of French TO&E! [:)]

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: easterner

Let me see if I have this straight. You don't want the transports that existed historically. But you want to transport 50,000 INF and 6000 horses that was never done historically?

Like I've said, what I want.... what I've ALWAYS wanted is a PC version of Empires in Arms.... I'm still waiting for someone out there to produce such a game.

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr



In what possible way are players FORCED to use transports? Only France starts with some

Then why do I have some as Turkey? I didn't buy any, that's for sure.

[pzgndr]

And the Turks, yes.

Back to ndrose's comment, something to consider for EiANW is the size of the fleet counters to allow for greater transport capacity. Instead of 20 Hvy and 10 Lt fleets, maybe something else would work. Since corps counters can contain infantry AND/OR militia, plus cavalry in many cases, why couldn't fleet counters also be made more flexible to contain heavy AND/OR light ships? I've reviewed the EiH v4 OOBs and they have fleets of 30/7 (max 30 Hvy and 7 Lt) and squadrons of 5 (Hvy or Lt), which seems like that might be the way to go with EiANW. If Marshall could recode the fleet counters to be more like corps counters and allow combinations of heavy/light ships, that should resolve the discrepancies. For PPs, here's the applicable EiH rule 6.7.3.6.3:

One political point is gained or lost for every Squadron in the defeated stack, and two political points are gained or lost for every Fleet in the defeated (rounding fractions up) stack during the combat up to a maximum of “+/-3” political points. Political points are only awarded/lost if there are more than two ships on each side. Galley Fleets and Transport Fleets have no impact on the gain/loss of political points.

Whether EiANW fleets should be 1 pp or 2pp is debatable. Maybe the EiH rule was trying to avoid fractions but Marshall says this isn't a problem. So 1pp for fleets and 1/2pp for squadrons should work, and no pp for transports? Classic EiA scenarios with just heavy fleets and ships would then work fine under the same rules.

[Ted1066]

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Like I've said, what I want.... what I've ALWAYS wanted is a PC version of Empires in Arms.... I'm still waiting for someone out there to produce such a game.

here here! Me too - EiH blows IMO. While it may have improved some rules (arguable), it mostly complicated things even more and added little to nothing.

Ted

[Marshall Ellis]

Wow LOL! Isn't it just simple enough to not use them if you do not want to???
 
 

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Wow LOL! Isn't it just simple enough to not use them if you do not want to???

How do we "not use them"???

Like Jimmer said, it's impossible to move the game forward without placing them and once they are on the map they are a liability and must be protected.

Is this indeed something that can be "taken out" in 1.06 with the editor? If so, I'd be very curious to see how many games moving forward use these silly fleets.

[Mardonius]

Or you could solve the problem in the near term by giving them a button that says "go to sea on merchant duty" that mirrors the button for sending LS to privateering/anti privateering duty. There is no upkeep cost for such fleets. And they need not be protected either.

[ndrose]

Regarding the liability question, although they do cost upkeep, I believe that there is no PP cost for having your unprotected transports captured. Am I mistaken about that?

I don't know about the case in which they are protected. It could be they count as a fleet on your side for calculation of PPs; I haven't checked that.

Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure (although I didn't get a save) that I have seen transports shoot back at attacking fleets (and sink ships!). I think it happens when they are attacked in a port (the AI sometimes puts things in ungarrisoned ports). If so, it's a bug, obviously; anyone else noticed this?

[Mardonius]

I have seen Transports cost and gain PP, but this was in an earlier version. Not sure now. They should not, per the EiH rules.

[obsidiandrag]

Yes, I have seen this also where in open water they are on the battle screen but do not fight (though I can't recall if they can be taken as losses) but in a port raid they do fight and have sunk my ships before...

I didn't think they counted against you as pp if they were by themselves and got attacked or captured etc..

In which case if you dont like the transports and that $1 each econ phase for the maintenance is too much for you then by all means take them out against Naples or Sweeden and loose them to a minor fleet, or in your first Major Power war (I am sure even the 2 ship Austrian light fleet would welcome the chance to sink something..)

I personally have found MANY uses for them, as France you can tie up a british fleet just by having it in a port with a corps there (even if only 1 factor as they don't know that and it represents a possible invasion) Russia can use it for Sweeden as long as he has other fleet support for the minor fleet, or from Corfu can reach most of the Medeteranian.. Turkey needs all the ships it can get and that transport fleet carrying capacity is more than the rest of its combined starting fleet. Spain and England are the only 2 who really don't need them for transport or tieing up fleets, but they work GREAT for sitting on that home depot to support invasion supply as you need someone there and this frees up your light and heavies to go and do what you want to...

So I am still for having them and have come to the conclusion going back to 30 heavies in a fleet will only help england as they are the only country with enough boats to fill 2 of those! Everyone else will pretty much have the same thing (1 full and one less than half at best) but that would also fix the capacity issues...

I think the thing that most makes me laugh is the fact we keep referring to the French corps size (and occasionally Prussian who has no ships) like they are going to go anywhere and expect the fleet to be able to carry them! even at 30 ships, do you think the British are going to let that thing out of port?

OD

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
What WHAT??? ?[8|]

In what possible way are players FORCED to use transports? Only France starts with some and ...[:'(]

This is false.

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
What WHAT??? ?[8|]

In what possible way are players FORCED to use transports? Only France starts with some and ...[:'(]

This is false.

yes, I already pointed that out for him

I mostly ignore his posts since 90% are uninformed.

[pzgndr]

This is false.

Yes Jimmer, I already acknowledged that the part about "only France" should have also included the Turks. I can fess up to my occassional errors; some cannot. [:)]

Howzabout the rest of what I said, or are you too selective in your response?? The part about players are not FORCED to use transports remains true. Players can still use heavy and light fleets and perform invasions and transports. Of course, not all full corps can be transported, and this requires some additional forethought and planning by players. Some players apparently have a major problem with this??

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

This is false.

Yes Jimmer, I already acknowledged that the part about "only France" should have also included the Turks. I can fess up to my occassional errors; some cannot. [:)]

Howzabout the rest of what I said, or are you too selective in your response?? The part about players are not FORCED to use transports remains true. Players can still use heavy and light fleets and perform invasions and transports. Of course, not all full corps can be transported, and this requires some additional forethought and planning by players. Some players apparently have a major problem with this??

Since we are FORCED to place them at setup then we are FORCED to use them, no?

[pzgndr]

Uh sure Neverman, like setting up the Guards is exactly the same as committing the guard and actually using them.  I suppose this gets into how the setup phase is not playable yet, or something.  Or whatever.  [8|]
 
So, assuming for the sake of argument that the context of the word "use" really means "to use DURING THE GAME" the part about players are not FORCED to use transports still remains true, no?  

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

Uh sure Neverman, like setting up the Guards is exactly the same as committing the guard and actually using them.  I suppose this gets into how the setup phase is not playable yet, or something.  Or whatever.  [8|]

So, assuming for the sake of argument that the context of the word "use" really means "to use DURING THE GAME" the part about players are not FORCED to use transports still remains true, no?  

Turkey doesn't really have a lot of money to begin with so making her pay extra just to keep a fleet on the map that is of LITTLE USE is a bit pointless.

[pzgndr]

You're right, if you are paying for something you choose not to use then that's pointless.  Disband the transports then and take the pp hit.  Big deal.  In the great scheme of things and total victory points needed to win, this is a mouse turd of a problem. 
 
Good news is this will all be moot for you guys very shortly with the editor and ability to completely eliminate light fleets and transports.  Reset all the fleets to size 30 heavy ships and all will be merry upon the seas.  And then no more complaints...  Probably not...
 
For the rest of the EiANW players interested in maintaining the diversity of heavy, light and transport ships and the option of piracy ops for historical gameplay, the discussions will continue.  The naval combat rules, naval counters, pp's and such can be improved.