Not an Attack

hammerhead · Post by **hammerhead** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 4:34 am

I have noticed that a lot of time is spent on
the details in this game...in every aspect
from almost every concievable viewpoint.
But as a researcher and writer on WW2 history
I have also noticed some things that are either missing or incorrect...I offer them below in the spirit of help and NOT to procure any anger or defensiveness by you guys out there who give use these great games. So take them for what I say they are , and for what you may consider they are worth. I have mentioned some of these points before:
50 cal 'Ma Deuce' US MG; range was 4 to 4.5 miles and very accurate range was 2+ miles..that is 90 hexes and 60 hexes respectively. Ref. My personal experience and; US Weapons in WW2, Technical Specifications, Performance. US Army Weapons Training HNDBK 1943.
37 mm US cannon. Was considered very accurate and respectable ... especially by the Germans..and was usually supported with a gyro-stabalized gun mount. Ref. 'US Army Ordinance in WW2', US Army in WW2 Series, and, 'Panzer Truppen', Jentz.
There were 3 ( not 2) rifle Sqds in a US armored infantry platoon ...along with their MG and AT teams. Ref "US OOB in WWII", S. Stanton
Repsonse to target: All, except very early, US tanks had motorized turrets, while most German tanks did not ( some of my souces even include to Pz.Kw V :Pantera in that unfortunte grouping. This means that target accuisition was about twice as fast in most cases. Pivoting StuGs and JagPz's seem too speedy.
The US 90 mm AA gun was used quite extensively begining 7/44 in ETO as an AT weapon. Its range far exceded to 56 hexes spec'ed in the SPW@W games. NOTE. The far too numerous AA Btns taken into France were demanded by Bradley to be put to use in both forward and offensive roles. I also question the SP spec'ed comparatively poor accuracy for this gun. Ref. "Breakout and Pursuit" US Army in WW2,US Army Series, and "The Bitter Woods" J.Eisenhower. and several more authoritative sources.
Napalm was used widely in the ETO and is widely available and in use at ST. LO and Metz 7/44 thru 11/44. "Breakout and Pursuit" US Army in WW2, US Army Series.
US half tracks could and did: carry and entire 12 man squad and;
US M15a1 and M16 HTs often towed 90mm AA and smaller calbre AA guns....That was in fact a definition of an Auto-weapons, Semi-mobile AA battalion. Ref. "US Army Handbook", G.Forty and, "US OOB in WWII", S. Stanton.
US Artillery Battalion had 18 guns per battalion/ 6 per battery, and 54 per regiment. "US Army Handbook", G.Forty and, "US OOB in WWII", S. Stanton.

I am giving references as I feel that such critiques are not taken seriously when nothing backs them up.
Lots more to say about subject, but running out of room here...and would like to find out how such info is received before I mouth off any more. Hope you take my words well...I do love the games and deeply respect the work that is being done.

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"Mediocrity carries its own price."
It is my pleasure to communicate with you.
Greg - "Hammerhead"

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 5:52 am

Such constructive criticism, especially when backed up with documentation is always well received.

There is an OOB editor in the game, Hammerhead. Now I don't think I would attempt to make changes at the moment since finalized OOBs will be out in a few weeks.

You have some good points here. I hope that the OOB team will read these. Many of them are active here so I am sure that they will..WB
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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

Latka · Post by **Latka** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 7:25 am

You mean we don't get to hang 'im, WB? (puts away rope).

Just kiddin, HH. Sounds like you've done some good work there!

<salute>

Andy

Bonzo · Post by **Bonzo** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:04 am

Greg, Your research is greatly appreciated, & definitely timely

Bonzo

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Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator
28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters
http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com
nwbattalion@icqmail.com

Fredde · Post by **Fredde** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 9:31 am

Not that i work with the OOB, but still.. very interesting reading! And you are definately right about speed and accuracy of pivoting the whole tank vs just turning the turret.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:15 am

Not yet, Latka, but don't put the rope away

. Just in case

Wild Bill

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In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

hammerhead · Post by **hammerhead** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:02 am

Well..gee ....I have lots more where this stuff came from...But I think I will wait for most of my input until there is no more talk of ROPES!

I did note that the T/O& E by your Scott Grasse does show the correct 3 squad Plt for US Mech Inf.

I will only offer here that Jentz's "Panzer Truppen" offers some really eye opening info on German tactics and armor....such as the fact that the Tiger I broke down continuously on BOTH fronts...far more of them were destroyed to avaoid capture than were hit by allied ordnance!

OK...One more ...it is late and I can feel a noose or something around my neck....

The 37mm US cannon used some type of canister shot throughout the Mediterrainian campaigns. I will have to dig up the source for this datum.

Some attention should be paid to the renouned excellence of US artilllery in WW2...most respected by the Germans for its accuracy...and by the Brits for such new US ideas as the TOT bombardment...

Both US air and artillery were quite superior to Germany's...not in the "last year of the war" as is stated in the W@W manual...but by mid '43 the Luftwaffe had lost 80% of its well trained pilots. While certianly some were super aces, most had poor training for lack of aircraft fuel.
See "The Luftwaffe 1933-1945, Strategy for Defeat", Williamson Murry The BEST book I have ever read on the subject. I recommend it with high praise.

As far as artillery goes, the US has had a 100 year tradition of excellence and if I might claim qualitative supremacy in that science...while the Germans had a few big guns ( Anzio Annie and those at Sebastapol ... Big Guns .....Real Cool, Man!

) but a rather poor view of its need in quality and quantity in WW2.

Enough already it's 2 in the AM and my wife will ...hang me!... if I am up too late!
Now ...where did I get such a fear of rope...? HMMM

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"Mediocrity carries its own price."
It is my pleasure to communicate with you.
Greg - "Hammerhead"

Grumble · Post by **Grumble** » Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:10 pm

Good stuff, thanks for sharing this with us.
My humble observations:
The 37mm DID have a cannister round issued. It was certainly used extensively the Pacific; can't say for sure about ETO.
It also had a gyro-stab'd mount, as did the 75mm in the M3 series. HOWEVER, crews nearly always disconnected it; especially as basically untrained replacements were employed in mid-1944 on. "More dangerous than it was worth" is the typical comment I've heard from veterans.
As to the M2 having a "range" of 4+ miles. Is that ballistic or tactical (I suspect the former)? Tactically, I've seen 'em used at 1000meters for suppression but no farther than that.
Motorized Turrets: Panther/Tiger were power-operated but very low geared. The Sherman series had two-speed turrets that indeed allowed them to acquire faster than most German AFVs. In game terms their ROF should be somewhat higher given equal crew competency.

troopie · Post by **troopie** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 12:28 am

Hammerhead, do you know where I can find the TOE for the US 10th Mountain Division in WW2?

Dankie,

troopie

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Pamwe Chete

Almogavar · Post by **Almogavar** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 12:33 am

"Response to target: All, except very early, US tanks had motorized turrets, while most German tanks did not ( some of my sources even include to Pz.Kw V :Pantera in that unfortune grouping. This means that target adquisition was about twice as fast in most cases."
hammerhead

Well, may be your information not is correct.

- Pz.III and IV:
Elevation of the main and co-axial armament was by means of a handwheel operated with the gunner´s left hand. Traverse could be either manual or powered, and a selector lever switched in whichever system was required. If the power traverse was engaged , power was supplied via the rotatory base junction to a motor with 15hp DKW P/6 on Pz.IV series and 10hp DKW 500 on Pz.III). On the J-model of the Pz.IV was deleted to make room for additional fuel.

- Panther:
The Panther had powered traverse, not electric but hydraulic. This meant that the speed with which the turret could be traversed was dependent on the engine speed. The driver could select a suitable gear to ensure quick traverse of the turret. If this was done the turret could be rotated 360º in 15 to 18 seconds. This corresponds to an angular velocity of 20-24º/sec, which was only marginally slower than the Sherman.
To put this into perspective it can be compared to the mobility of a target. Assume that a target is at distance of 200m and moves with a speed of 30 km/h perpendicular to the line of sight from the tank. This corresponds to an angular velocity of 2,4 °/sec, or only a tenth of the speed that the Panther turret could traverse.
- Tiger I:
The hydraulic drive traversed the turret at a maximum rate of 360º in 60 seconds dependent on the engine speed.

- Tiger II:
An improved hydraulic traverse was introduced with the Tiger II in which the speed at which the turret was traversed under power was dependent on the engine speed and selection of low or high range by the gunner. In High range, the Tiger II turret could be traversed through 360º in 19 seconds, more or less the same in the Panther.

You can see the Pz.III/IV/V/VI/VIB on several museums.

Almogavar

Tombstone · Post by **Tombstone** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 1:47 am

I dont think turret traverse speed can be judged based on its angular velocity relative to enemy unit speed. I think that the faster you can turn your turret the better... at least insofar as it relates to the delay of the first shot on any given target.

Tomo

Elvis · Post by **Elvis** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:04 am

<<< Hammerhead, do you know where I can find the TOE for the US 10th Mountain Division in WW2?
Dankie,

troopie

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Pamwe Chete >>>

The 10th Mountain Division/WW2:

85th, 86th, 87th Infantry Regt.
604th, 605th, 616th Field Artillery Bn.
10th Reconnaissance Troop
110th Signal Company
710th Ordnance Company
10th Quartermaster Company
126th Engineer Battalion
10th Medical Battalion

These were the Division's organic units, this list does not include attachments/detachments.

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alea iacta est
sooperduk@hotmail.com

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:08 am

Oh how I wish I could call a regt TOT!!!! I was a forward observer for 4 years in Marines and loved TOT's... All the rounds coming at once, sounding like a express train, the target area lifting up in a flash.....oh memories...

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

Elvis · Post by **Elvis** » Wed Oct 11, 2000 2:39 am

Re: 37mm canister

The following ammunition types were available for the US 37mm M5/M6 series weapons:

M65 (HE)
M74 (AP)
M51 (APCBC)
M2 (Canister)

The M2 Canister round had a muzzle velocity of 763 m/s and weighed .881 kg. Standard loadout for the M3/M5 Stuarts, M3 Lee, M8 Greyhound, and M6 Staghound included ~10 M2 rounds.

(Hunnicutt: Sherman, The American Medium Tank and others)

As far as operational use, I've found instances in both the ETO and PTO:

Europe:

Recon party sent to Mezieries area to reconnoiter enemy position returned after having visited Rocroi and Charleville. Discovered enemy evacuated and destroyed all bridges across Meuse River. While on reconnaissance for bridge crossing, enemy fired on Captain Page in 1/4 ton. Enemy fire from house and water tower used for observation point. M-8 behind 1/4 ton fired 70 rounds of .50 caliber into house and 2 rounds of 37mm Canister and 2 rounds of HE at tower, neutralized both strong points.

(Condon: The 635th Tank Destroyer Battalion in Europe in World War II)

Pacific:

By this time Ichiki had assembled his force on the brush-covered point of land on the east bank of the river, and all was quiet until 0310 on 21 August when a column of some 200 Japanese rushed the exposed sandspit at the river mouth. Most of them were stopped by Marine small-arms fire and by a canister-firing 37mm antitank gun of the 1st Special Weapons Battalion.

and later,

To conclude the action by nightfall, Vandegrift ordered a tank attack across the sandspit and into what now had become the rear of the Ichiki Force. The platoon of light tanks struck at 1500, firing at the enemy with canister and machine guns.

(Hough, Ludwig, Shaw: History of U.S. Marine Corps Operations in World War II, Pearl Harbor to Guadalcanal)

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alea iacta est
sooperduk@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by Elvis (edited October 10, 2000).]