Aircraft factory costs and firepower ratings

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:43 am

I have seen this in the threads, but can't figure out which is correct.

What is the cutoff number in an aircraft's cost that makes it not selectable / changeable in manual production? Is it 9, 11 15 or some other number?

Is there any "formula" for arriving at fighter and bomber cannon ratings? It looks like each 50-caliber or 13mm MG rates a 2 on fighters (the P-51 has a 12 rating with 6 fifties and the P-47 a 16 with 8 fifties), but bombers seem to get lower ratings (the B-17 with from 10-13 fifties has a 13 rating). If there is any rationale to this I'll be glad to hear it.

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:45 am

Along the sale lines, the 20 & 30mm cannons used in figheter usually had a MUCH smaller ammunition load than MGs, is this factored into the cannon ratings of cannon equipped fighters?

LargeSlowTarget · Post by **LargeSlowTarget** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 3:28 pm

Originally posted by Ranger-75

Is there any "formula" for arriving at fighter and bomber cannon ratings? It looks like each 50-caliber or 13mm MG rates a 2 on fighters (the P-51 has a 12 rating with 6 fifties and the P-47 a 16 with 8 fifties), but bombers seem to get lower ratings (the B-17 with from 10-13 fifties has a 13 rating). If there is any rationale to this I'll be glad to hear it.

All fighter MG and cannon usually point in the same direction (i.e. forward), defensive armament of bombers is split up facing in different directions (forward, tail, dorsal, ventral, sides). Not all 10-13 fifties on a B-17 could be fired at an attacking enemy fighter simultaneously.

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Thu Jul 25, 2002 8:36 pm

LargeSlowTarget nailed the reasons for bomber weaponry on the head. I was (and still am) of 2 minds to do this, since bombers usually flew in close formation, which multiplied their firepower. Possibly instead of cutting bomber cannon ratings by 1/2, maybe it should be by cutting out 1/3 or 1/4. However, then you get into the discussion of wether or not 50 calibur guns mounted on individual turrets would have the same killing power as 50 calibur guns mounted all in one direction at one target? It is really difficult to say.

However, bombers that were tough (such as the USAAC heavy bombers) tend to kill enemy fighters pretty well with their lowered cannon ratings. Certain weaker bombers (most Japanese) have such low ratings that they are virtually no threat to enemy bombers (which is true).

It is not quite as easily calculated as 1 12.7mm gun = 2 points, but a long time ago I received an e-mail from a dedicated PacWarrior who calculated the actual punch of weaponry used by all airforces (down to different marks used on different aircraft) based on weight of bullet, velocity, rate of fire among other factors. Some 12.7mm guns were less than 2, some were more. What I did was to add up the value of all of their weaponry, then round it up or down (as there were a lot of decimals).

Ammunition was discussed back then, but it was decided that making a kill did not really require a lot of ammunition and combat was usually decided in a few seconds. Having a large ammo supply would only be worth while if you engaged a series of enemies, and even still, most aircraft had enough ammo to fight, then escape, from most engagements. The FM2 had less guns but more ammo, however, that did not increase its firepower, just is longevity in battle.

IntellWeenie · Post by **IntellWeenie** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 1:20 am

My grandfather was a B-17 bombardier (in Europe) and told me that most of the time they fired to drive off fighters, not to kill them. Gunners were taught to fire at maximum range to distract and force enemy fighters to break off their attacks early. This is very different gunnery than in a fighter where the aim is to actually destroy the other airplane. I would keep the bomber cannon adjustment at 1/2.

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:30 am

Thanks, that helps.

Now back to the first question, what is the cutoff cost value on aircraft where over that value you can't manually change a factory.

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:31 am

BillBrown · Post by **BillBrown** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 2:43 pm

I thought mika said 10.

LargeSlowTarget · Post by **LargeSlowTarget** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:24 pm

I'm working on my obc at the moment, so I made a quick check - it's 10.

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:35 pm

Cut off for factories is 15, cut off for changing aircraft was 10. In 3.1 it will be 15 for both.

LargeSlowTarget · Post by **LargeSlowTarget** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 6:51 pm

Jeremy, now I'm confused. Didn't know factories have a cut off, I just thought their capacity grows the slower the higher the capacity gets. And you cannot change heavy industry into something else, can you? Could you please explain to me the difference between factory cut off and aircraft changing cut off?

Another thing I just hit on. In v3.0 the aircraft costs for some models (e.g. Tempest, H8K) are above the cutoff number, so you cannot change factories manually to build these planes. But there are also no preselected factories that will become active when the planes become available. Doesn't that mean that it will never be possible to produce those planes? Or are there changes in the exe to switch factory production automatically even under human factory control?

Thanks,
LST

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:01 pm

There is the editor...

I fixed everything in 3.1 so this problem will not occur...

LargeSlowTarget · Post by **LargeSlowTarget** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 7:15 pm

Other questions in this context:

1. What is the maximum amount of factory production and what are the optimums after which factories expand very slowly?

2. Is it feasible to concentrate all US heavy industry in just one factory in the Eastern US with a very high value (would be 235 at 12/7/41 for all heavy industry in CONUS combined). This would free up factory slots for example for small shipyards in PH, Australia, India, Truk, Singapore (reducing shipyard values elsewhere to keep the balance). Will this influence the expansion of other industry branches?

LST

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:27 pm

1. It all depends on aircraft cost, Heavy Industry avalible as well as (for Japan) supplies of oil and resources.

2. I am pretty sure that factory numbers are limited to 99, much like resources are.

I am pretty sure that Heavy Industry is taken from a pool, but it seems that Heavy Industry located in a particular base will influence those factories more than factories in other bases (I tried messing with Heavy Industry and it appears that the bases with higher heavy industry have their aircraft factories expanding faster then those with bases with lower heavy industry).

Svar · Post by **Svar** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 8:40 pm

Originally posted by Jeremy Pritchard
1.
2. I am pretty sure that factory numbers are limited to 99, much like resources are.

I have been using 255 as the limit for factories. Right now I'm using 140 for the shipyard in the eastern US and it seems to be working fine.

LargeSlowTarget · Post by **LargeSlowTarget** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 9:01 pm

Originally posted by Jeremy Pritchard

I am pretty sure that Heavy Industry is taken from a pool, but it seems that Heavy Industry located in a particular base will influence those factories more than factories in other bases (I tried messing with Heavy Industry and it appears that the bases with higher heavy industry have their aircraft factories expanding faster then those with bases with lower heavy industry).

Apparently, regardless whether the ceiling being 99 or 255 my 'concentration in the East'-plans will negatively influence the other industry branches elsewhere, so lest I throw everything out of balance, I'll leave hvy ind as it is. I'll just switch the Vancouver shipyard to PH and will change the second US armor factory to a shipyard at Truk with 4 points and see how it works. Thanks guys!

LST

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Fri Jul 26, 2002 10:46 pm

Before I saw your post on it I tried having a factory at East US have 200 Heavy Industry, and it does appear to work. However, what it will do to factories at that base, I don't know. It is 'probably' best to leave Heavy Industry at every base that has a factory.

However, British factories did not have any form of Heavy Industry yet seem to grow at pretty high rates as well. So maybe having Heavy Industry at a base only 'inlfuences' factory growth, not dominate it.

I will probably get rid of the AFV factory at Seattle, and just stick all artillery and AFV production at the East Coast.

Factories tend to grow at the same rate. Having one factory producing 50 units will grow a lot less than 2 factories of 25.

You should keep that into consideration when modifying factory and production.

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:02 am

I thought that I read somewhere that once a factory gets to 25, it's growth rate starts slowing down - can't remember where I read it though. The original manual states that factories grow fast until they reach their "optimum size" without defining that term. PWHints does not comment on factory size.

Jeremy, how about putting a heavy industry factory in the "to middle east" base?

This game uses the same basic engine as War in Russia, so maybe that manual can shed some light on the factory growth situation as it relats to heavy industry. I checked all the 3 prior games (SF, WF, WIR). They all mention 20 as the factory size where growth starts slowing. They also mantion HI, but no specific numbers.

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Sat Jul 27, 2002 2:52 am

I have seen some factories grow to the low 30's, and even one get up to the 60's.

This can be done by doing the following...

Factory at Eastern US

F4F, cost 6, factory producing 27
F6F, cost 3, factory producing = 2x #F4F (2x 27=54)

This eventually, and slowly, grows up to 60 or so per turn.

Actually, I am pretty happy at how British factory's grow. In earlier versions, you would get 1000's of british aircraft, (Hurricanes, Spitfires, Blenheims, Welligtons) while the theatre saw only a fraction of these. Sometimes there were actually more aircraft produced in these factories then were actually historically produced in all theatres! I really had to nail British production so their air groups will not as easily dominate the region as PacWar let them do before. They cannot take the same levels of attrition as the US, which negates a lot of their offensive power.

I will check out WIR's manual, as I have the "Award Winning War Games" collection siting right beside me. If it is not in there, I will look at the Matrix Game's WIR manual I have with their release of WIR.

Jeremy Pritchard · Post by **Jeremy Pritchard** » Sat Jul 27, 2002 3:05 am

Here us what the WIR manual states...

"Cities with manufacturing facilities will have a Heavy Industry number. This represents the size of the factories located there. The number of items produced each week at a facility will be a factor of the Heavy Industry number and the production cost of the manufactured item. The total Heavy Industry number for all factories is a factor in the growth of individual facilities. Each location has a chance of increasing in size until it reaches a value of 20. Small factories are more likely to grow than large ones."

Looking at this part...

"The number of items produced each week at a facility will be a factor of the Heavy Industry number and the production cost of the manufactured item."

It sounds like the HI of a given base, along with Production Cost of the Unit determines the size of the factory at the given base. The higher the HI number, and the lower the PC number the bigger the factory maximum.

"The total Heavy Industry number for all factories is a factor in the growth of individual facilities."

This is when it takes all HI points and determines wether or not factories will grow (i.e., if they have not hit their maximum).

"Each location has a chance of increasing in size until it reaches a value of 20."

This can mean many things. It could mean that the minimum maximum size of a factory is 20 (i.e., no matter how few HI points at the base, or how high the Produciton Cost of the unit, the factory can still grow up to 20, but no more than 20). However, it does not state that 20 is the maximum, just that each location has a chance to reach 20. So, it can get larger than 20 as the maximum, but not below 20 as the maximum.

I think this is how Pacific War works, as when I tested increasing the HI at one particular base there were more aircraft being produced there, proportionally to other bases.

So, my current understanding of HI is that it affects the GROWTH of factories as a collection of all points in a pool (like shipyard points) and that HI influences the size of factories along with Production Cost. However, it must not be a critical factor, because you can have bases that have factory growth and no Heavy Industry.

There might be a base number that states even without HI a factory can grow to a certain amount per turn.

Aircraft factory costs and firepower ratings

Aircraft factory costs and firepower ratings

Re: Aircraft factory costs and firepower ratings