France Land Movement Order Announcement

[Mardonius]

Hello Marshall:

This is a rather big issue that, I think could be easily mitigated:

Currently, the order of Frances's Land Movement is revealed upon entry in the reinforcement phase. This allows naval powers to make a much more effective use of combined naval-corps movement as the naval power (usually GB) will know that he can disembark his corps without fear of France's land army coming to pound him.

May seem minor, but this is a big advantage, particularly when combined with the fact that ships now enter a port from the blockade box immediately upon the seizure of this port. So a GB army can land and evacuate before France has the chance to react. This is very different from the board game(s) where LAND ORDER WAS CHOSEN IN THE LAND MOVEMENT PHASE.

Suggested Solution: Do not announce the order of the land movement (REMOVE IT FROM THE LOG) and have the French land movement just pop up at some point in the land phase. Solves the problem and keeps the suspense, which shoudl add to the vigor of this game/make it more exciting as you will never quite know when the ogre will wake up. [:)]

Can you squeak this into 1.06? Should not be too hard to remove a log entry.

Thanks
Mardonius

[DCWhitworth]

That would not be a solution it would be a work around. Normally France would like to move last so this will merely make Britains ventures a little chancier.

Another issue is that France's land move order (And GB's naval) is only announced if it is changed, thus one has to remember from turn to turn when they are moving if they haven't changed.

[Mardonius]

That is true David, as it forces the French choice before the GB naval move. But is a marked improvement on what we have now, no?

The only onther option I see is to Change the selection of Land Order Movement to the Land Phase. This has the drawback of requiring an extra "Ghost" French land phase wherein it choses only to move or not to move first, but I believe that this solution is the preferred solution for improving the spirit and balance of the game.


See Mantis 504

[Trax]

If we are to go down this road, the GB announcement of naval phase movement order should also be removed from the log. Players can learn the turn order during the naval and land phases by checking the turn order sequence at the top of the screen.

[Jimmer]

To be true to the EIA rules, the decision should be done at the beginning of the naval and land movement steps. As a compromise, I suspect, it's in reinforcement. GB's naval move order should be known at the beginning of the naval movement step, which just happens to coincide with the end of the reinforcement phase.
 
So, I think GB's naval order should be announced at the end of the reinforcement phase or the beginning of the naval phase (whichever is easier to code). France's should be declared at the beginning of the land phase. Both can be (secretly) set during reinforcement. This is a compromise, though; a purist can validly argue for having a "ghost French land phase".

[Jimmer]

On the other hand, don't forget the very large penalty that GB has (vs. the original rules): GB goes early in the reinforcement phase, but her naval reinforcements should come last.
 
If the movement order is changed, GB should have "secret" naval reinforcements, revealed only at the end of the reinforcement phase (probably at the same time as naval movement order is announced).

[Mardonius]

Just hide both movement announcements and I will be happy as I won't let the pefect be the enemy of the good as far as improvements go..

[Ted1066]

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

Just hide both movement announcements and I will be happy as I won't let the pefect be the enemy of the good as far as improvements go..

Yeah, this seems the to be the best approach. Have France and GB select their turn order in the reinforcement phase, but do not announce the order in the log until the first players plays their naval phase and land phase. Thus, the log would show GB's choice of turn order just before the play of the first nations naval phase and France's choice of turn order just before the first land phase. Keeping the information hidden until the start of each phase shouldn't be that difficult to implement (I hope).

Ted

[bresh]

I dont agree, for the rytm of the game it works fine as it is, and it should be announced each reinf-phase not only when changed.
 
France has alot of advantages as it currently is.
 
France knows all about who lend corps/fleets etc when he decides his move order, while GB does not.
The GB-naval invasion scenario you talk about is of minor effect against a good French player.
 
Regards
Bresh

[Jimmer]

ORIGINAL: bresh
France knows all about who lend corps/fleets etc when he decides his move order, while GB does not.

Yes, this is what I was trying to point out by the second post: France and GB both lost "something" in the transition to EIANW. However, this correction only helps France; the correction makes no difference to GB (or, very little).

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

ORIGINAL: bresh
France knows all about who lend corps/fleets etc when he decides his move order, while GB does not.

Yes, this is what I was trying to point out by the second post: France and GB both lost "something" in the transition to EIANW. However, this correction only helps France; the correction makes no difference to GB (or, very little).

There are more reasons why France has more advantages in this game than normal.
Russia 1-3rd corps and guard corps reduced.
Austria 2 less depots.
The not able to add minors to a kingdom(especially hurts Turkey for OE) as well as the way Poland works(Prussia can not create poland and then give it to an ally).

Regards
Bresh

[Ted1066]

ORIGINAL: bresh

There are more reasons why France has more advantages in this game than normal.
Russia 1-3rd corps and guard corps reduced.
Austria 2 less depots.
The not able to add minors to a kingdom(especially hurts Turkey for OE) as well as the way Poland works(Prussia can not create poland and then give it to an ally).

Regards
Bresh

Not to beat a dead horse, but add to French advantages:
Lack of an effective mechanism for combined movement to combat French aggression.
Increased French OOB (X - XII Corps increased in strength)

Although the editor coming out will allow many changes to take place with the game, I don't think it will be able to alter the fundamental flow of the game (as in the underlying mechanisms by which this game functions), so these flaws in game mechanics will persist until Marshall corrects them.

Cheers,

Ted

[Jimmer]

By the way, I'm not saying "don't do it" simply because it's unfair to GB (or, whatever). But, if implemented, players need to know that they should consider raising their bids for France and lowering them for GB, that's all.
 
The game is always automatically balanced for human players who are around the same level of skill. Just add or subtract from the bid.
 
Well, as long as the group doesn't use the GAP, that is. The GAP artificially caps the French bid at 30, a number which is far too low for a mildly experienced player.

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: Ted1066

ORIGINAL: bresh

There are more reasons why France has more advantages in this game than normal.
Russia 1-3rd corps and guard corps reduced.
Austria 2 less depots.
The not able to add minors to a kingdom(especially hurts Turkey for OE) as well as the way Poland works(Prussia can not create poland and then give it to an ally).

Regards
Bresh

Not to beat a dead horse, but add to French advantages:
Lack of an effective mechanism for combined movement to combat French aggression.
Increased French OOB (X - XII Corps increased in strength)

Although the editor coming out will allow many changes to take place with the game, I don't think it will be able to alter the fundamental flow of the game (as in the underlying mechanisms by which this game functions), so these flaws in game mechanics will persist until Marshall corrects them.

Cheers,

Ted

Kinda in the same area(combined movement), but another French advantage is the lack of allies able to pay supply(using their depots), without needing to lend the corps.

Also big FR+GB advantage, they can not loose their dominant status.

Regards
Bresh

[Marshall Ellis]

I'm kind of on the fence here guys??? I don't mind making changes but exlpain to me again why France's announcement should be hidden???
 

[Mardonius]

In the board games, Land Movement Order was chosen in the Land Movement. Land Movement comes AFTER Naval Movement.

In our game, Land Movement is chosen during the Reinforcment Phase. Reinforcement comes BEFORE Naval movement.

So, Great Britain (for example) can now conduct amphibious operations (with embark troops) knowing the order that France will move and hit targets without any risk of a French response. This gives GB an advantage in chosing where and when to strike in Sea-Land Operations.

Previously, GB would have had to commit to an amphibious operation and France could have adjusted its land move to give it a much more effective response to the assault.

By hiding land movement order changes, Great Britain (again, for example) will not know when the French will respond.

I hope this clears it up. I am glad to call you on the line and talk this over if you send me your number to varick (underscore) ready at yahoo dot com.

best
Mardonius

[NeverMan]

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

In the board games, Land Movement Order was chosen in the Land Movement. Land Movement comes AFTER Naval Movement.

In our game, Land Movement is chosen during the Reinforcment Phase. Reinforcement comes BEFORE Naval movement.

So, Great Britain (for example) can now conduct amphibious operations (with embark troops) knowing the order that France will move and hit targets without any risk of a French response. This gives GB an advantage in chosing where and when to strike in Sea-Land Operations.

Previously, GB would have had to commit to an amphibious operation and France could have adjusted its land move to give it a much more effective response to the assault.

By hiding land movement order changes, Great Britain (again, for example) will not know when the French will respond.

I hope this clears it up. I am glad to call you on the line and talk this over if you send me your number to varick (underscore) ready at yahoo dot com.

best
Mardonius

Absolutely agree!!

[Marshall Ellis]

Got it.
I'm not sure if we can make this in 1.06 but will look.
 

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Got it.
I'm not sure if we can make this in 1.06 but will look.

Please dont.

France has as described to many advantages compared to the original game as it is. And you would shift it further.

Fix those and then you can look into changing when France selects land-move order, otherwise France gets yet 1 more big advantage to the lot.

Also fix combats as prior described any combats, be it "single corps-defending" or naval-port breaks etc should require file-exchange and rolls not shown on the pc, that actually rolls it.

Regards
Bresh

[Mardonius]

Bresh:

I would ask you to put forward any changes that you think should be made based on the individual merits of that issue rather than making broad statements concerning imbalance in the game.

If you put forward individual changes with their merits open to criticism, then we can make valid improvements. To say don't make a valid improvement because of other issues that could themselves be fixed or tossed out if vetted is a dubious and fundamentally flawed approached.

Thank you
Mardonius