A Call To Arms

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: gridley

After answering the call to arms here, me and the guys want to get a game or two under our belt before butting heads with the Mad Russian and his gang.[;)]

Anyway I'm worried after having moved everything around so often I may be missing some counters. Does anyone have a spreadsheet or something with a complete list of counters for WiF FE? I've looked around and couldn't find one.

Thx,

Gridley

Edit: I think I may have just found what I need. I know this sounds odd but is there more than one edition of the Final Edition? The descriptions of the counter sheets I found seems to imply this.

Patrice has a web site with all the latest counter sheets - but I do not know what the name of his website is[:(].

This is it:

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm

But if you are worried about lost counters from old games, you'll find you are missing a bunch anyways, as several countersheets have been re-issued over the years.

[gridley]

Yeah, it was Patrice's site I found. It was a little confusing at first, ok a lot confusing [&:], but I got it all figured out.

By the way it wasn't the site that was confusing it was me a) finding the counter sheets before finding the components list and b) me not knowing there was a WiF FE Classic and Delux version. Turns out we have the Delux version.

It's all good.[:)]

[gridley]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


This is it:

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm

But if you are worried about lost counters from old games, you'll find you are missing a bunch anyways, as several countersheets have been re-issued over the years.

Yeah, I noticed all the different releases, but in his gallery Patrice seems to have pics of them all.[&o]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: gridley

ORIGINAL: paulderynck


This is it:

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm

But if you are worried about lost counters from old games, you'll find you are missing a bunch anyways, as several countersheets have been re-issued over the years.

Yeah, I noticed all the different releases, but in his gallery Patrice seems to have pics of them all.[&o]

Patrice does very nice work. He has validated that the data files in MWIF correctly match the counter sheets (ye gods, was that a lot of work!).[&o][&o][&o]

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: gridley

So it's started has it...[:D]

Although me and the boys haven't played WiF in a few years I don't think it will take long for us to get our brains dusted off, re-learn the rules, remember our miriad of victorious strategies...then take our rightful place as conquerers.[;)]

Don't worry though, we won't mind if you use the strategies you learn from us to beat your next opponents.[:)]

See you soon Sad Russian.

"You may fire when you are ready, Gridley."

I guess the first thing we need to decide is what level of optional rules you guys are used to playing with so we can get some experience with them.

What level of the game does your group play?

Good Hunting.

MR

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
He has validated that the data files in MWIF correctly match the counter sheets (ye gods, was that a lot of work!).[&o][&o][&o]

Yes, until some guy came and messed around some of them.

[gridley]

We have The World in Flames Deluxe game which includes Planes in Flames, Ships in Flames, Mech in Flames, Africa Aflame and Asia Aflame.

I have an optional rules manifest in front of me...there are 69 optional rules in total. Too much typing for me right now. I just felled and cut up 5 trees this weekend and my hands are pretty much numb. [:(] My own fault, I knew my chain was starting to get dull but I just wanted to finish. The Chainsaw was vibrating something fierce by the end.

Anyway, we use most options. The major one we did not use was Oil...but from what I have read here, many do use it. So we should probably start getting familiar to it. We also used the 1D10 land combat table but again it seems like many herre use the 2D10, we'll look into this one as well.

Another that we used and aren't sure about is option 32. Carpet Bombing. In our games the allies used it quite a bit on D-Day. In reality were any divisions really ever destroyed from the air? Other than one...the Lehr Division or something like that.

Actually, from reading your other posts I will pose this question to you. How many divisions were ever destroyed from airiel bombing in WWII...if any?

Do you have the optional rules manifest? if you do I will just forward to you the numbers we use and the numbers we don't use. If you don't have the manifest, no problem, I'll type it out for you later.

Gridley

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: gridley

We have The World in Flames Deluxe game which includes Planes in Flames, Ships in Flames, Mech in Flames, Africa Aflame and Asia Aflame.

I have an optional rules manifest in front of me...there are 69 optional rules in total. Too much typing for me right now. I just felled and cut up 5 trees this weekend and my hands are pretty much numb. [:(] My own fault, I knew my chain was starting to get dull but I just wanted to finish. The Chainsaw was vibrating something fierce by the end.

Anyway, we use most options. The major one we did not use was Oil...but from what I have read here, many do use it. So we should probably start getting familiar to it. We also used the 1D10 land combat table but again it seems like many herre use the 2D10, we'll look into this one as well.

Another that we used and aren't sure about is option 32. Carpet Bombing. In our games the allies used it quite a bit on D-Day. In reality were any divisions really ever destroyed from the air? Other than one...the Lehr Division or something like that.

Actually, from reading your other posts I will pose this question to you. How many divisions were ever destroyed from airiel bombing in WWII...if any?

Do you have the optional rules manifest? if you do I will just forward to you the numbers we use and the numbers we don't use. If you don't have the manifest, no problem, I'll type it out for you later.

Gridley

I'm getting ready to download a copy of the FE rules. Is the manifest in them? We stopped getting new rule sets at 5th Edition. So we are going to have to familiarize ourselves with the other upgraded options and changes. From what I've seen so far the only one that makes any kind of significant changes to the way we used to play is the offensive chit. Everything else is just fluff or eye candy. That all gets burned away in the heat of combat anyway. From what I've read so far the offensive chit is another story entirely.

We're going to have to make some adjustments to the builds etc...the strategies still stay the same. We might just have to take different road to get there now is all. The tools may be different, the goals and how you accomplish them don't seem to be.

The only division I know that was actually destroyed from the air was Panzer Lehr.

Carpet bombing in actual use wasn't all it was cracked up to be. The bombing points were soon obscured by smoke and dust, the bomb craters created more problems than the original enemy forces, Allied forces were hit as often as enemy forces...etc. It was only done a half dozen times and of those the Allied forces suffered more than the Germans did. Even if you count the destruction of Panzer Lehr. After Normandy the idea that heavy bombers should be used in a tactical mode was pretty much written off as not a good idea. If it had worked well there would have been countless times they would have done it. The fact that it wasn't done often shows you how well it worked.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: gridley

We have The World in Flames Deluxe game which includes Planes in Flames, Ships in Flames, Mech in Flames, Africa Aflame and Asia Aflame.

I have an optional rules manifest in front of me...there are 69 optional rules in total. Too much typing for me right now. I just felled and cut up 5 trees this weekend and my hands are pretty much numb. [:(] My own fault, I knew my chain was starting to get dull but I just wanted to finish. The Chainsaw was vibrating something fierce by the end.

Anyway, we use most options. The major one we did not use was Oil...but from what I have read here, many do use it. So we should probably start getting familiar to it. We also used the 1D10 land combat table but again it seems like many herre use the 2D10, we'll look into this one as well.

Another that we used and aren't sure about is option 32. Carpet Bombing. In our games the allies used it quite a bit on D-Day. In reality were any divisions really ever destroyed from the air? Other than one...the Lehr Division or something like that.

Actually, from reading your other posts I will pose this question to you. How many divisions were ever destroyed from airiel bombing in WWII...if any?

Do you have the optional rules manifest? if you do I will just forward to you the numbers we use and the numbers we don't use. If you don't have the manifest, no problem, I'll type it out for you later.

Gridley

I'm getting ready to download a copy of the FE rules. Is the manifest in them? We stopped getting new rule sets at 5th Edition. So we are going to have to familiarize ourselves with the other upgraded options and changes. From what I've seen so far the only one that makes any kind of significant changes to the way we used to play is the offensive chit. Everything else is just fluff or eye candy. That all gets burned away in the heat of combat anyway. From what I've read so far the offensive chit is another story entirely.

We're going to have to make some adjustments to the builds etc...the strategies still stay the same. We might just have to take different road to get there now is all. The tools may be different, the goals and how you accomplish them don't seem to be.

The only division I know that was actually destroyed from the air was Panzer Lehr.

Carpet bombing in actual use wasn't all it was cracked up to be. The bombing points were soon obscured by smoke and dust, the bomb craters created more problems than the original enemy forces, Allied forces were hit as often as enemy forces...etc. It was only done a half dozen times and of those the Allied forces suffered more than the Germans did. Even if you count the destruction of Panzer Lehr. After Normandy the idea that heavy bombers should be used in a tactical mode was pretty much written off as not a good idea. If it had worked well there would have been countless times they would have done it. The fact that it wasn't done often shows you how well it worked.

Good Hunting.

MR

I've been reading up on Panzer Lehr now. Although the division took losses from the air it seems to me that it is a myth that it got destroyed by air power.

[brian brian]

I would study the 2d10 table more closely than the Offensive Chit rules. Plenty of tactical detail has been added to the combat system.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Orm


I've been reading up on Panzer Lehr now. Although the division took losses from the air it seems to me that it is a myth that it got destroyed by air power.

That depends on what you consider to be "destroyed". Not every man was killed. As far as combat value goes, my research shows the division was worthless after that attack.

Good Hunting.

MR

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Orm


I've been reading up on Panzer Lehr now. Although the division took losses from the air it seems to me that it is a myth that it got destroyed by air power.

That depends on what you consider to be "destroyed". Not every man was killed. As far as combat value goes, my research shows the division was worthless after that attack.

Good Hunting.

MR

Worthless for how much time?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Orm


I've been reading up on Panzer Lehr now. Although the division took losses from the air it seems to me that it is a myth that it got destroyed by air power.

That depends on what you consider to be "destroyed". Not every man was killed. As far as combat value goes, my research shows the division was worthless after that attack.

Good Hunting.

MR

I've read on several places that the effect of allied airpower has been grossly overestimated. The number of tanks destroyed by allied airpower seems to be alot lower than what the allied claimed during (and after) the war.

If a division is depleted and then is subject to a massive airbombardment and suffers additional losses. It is then attacked and severly outnumbered. The division is worthless after the attack. It seems then wrong to me to then say that it was destroyed by airpower.

Anyway. I found this site on Panzer Lehr and it looks credible. Whats your opinion?

http://web.telia.com/~u18313395/normand ... /lehr.html

[micheljq]

I did read a book on the canadians and british fighting for Caen in Normandy in 1944. The british did 2 major bombing of the city with 1000+ strategic bombers (according to the book) before the anglo-canadians-polish did launch their major assault on the city. To me it looks like carpet bombing. The effectiveness of those bombings was limited, it destroyed a couple of defenses and troops, but created ruins where the germans could dig up and defend, just like the soviets did in Stalingrad.

Later the british began to see that tactical bombing and a better coordination with the land troops was urgerly needed. We were in august 1944 and they were beginning to understand that.

The british/canadians/polish launched 2 major assaults on Caen after the bombings and both times were repulsed with heavy losses nevertheless the heavy bombing of the german defenders prior the attacks.

I was always against the option 32, carpet bombing, I think it's overexaggerated.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: micheljq
I was always against the option 32, carpet bombing, I think it's overexaggerated.

More than 50% of the time, Carpet bombing has no result in WiF FE.
Moreover, you need 25 factors (which is 4-5 air units usualy) to have maximum chances of success which are 40% chances.

This looks like pretty much worthless to me, and certainly not overexaggerated.

[gridley]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: micheljq
I was always against the option 32, carpet bombing, I think it's overexaggerated.

More than 50% of the time, Carpet bombing has no result in WiF FE.
Moreover, you need 25 factors (which is 4-5 air units usualy) to have maximum chances of success which are 40% chances.

This looks like pretty much worthless to me, and certainly not overexaggerated.

In France, I have seen carpet bombing be extremely deadly. The CW (or US depending on how you plan it) does an Air Offensive Chit. The US (Or CW) does a Super Combined. This combo can result in a number of Carpet Bombings and Ground Strikes up and down the line. While the Ally using the Super Combined exploits the weakened hexes. On more than one occasion this Offensive Chit combination has been able to rip holes in the well planned German line.

You can argue that this is an extreme example, 2 offensive chits were used...and of course you would be correct. But it does show that Carpet Bombing can be effective if used in certain situations. And really the only situation carpet Bombing is ever used is by the allies in France.

My initial question was weather or not it is realistic and should be used, as even in this forum there was not even an agreement if one single division was ever destroyed from the air.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: gridley

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: micheljq
I was always against the option 32, carpet bombing, I think it's overexaggerated.

More than 50% of the time, Carpet bombing has no result in WiF FE.
Moreover, you need 25 factors (which is 4-5 air units usualy) to have maximum chances of success which are 40% chances.

This looks like pretty much worthless to me, and certainly not overexaggerated.

In France, I have seen carpet bombing be extremely deadly. The CW (or US depending on how you plan it) does an Air Offensive Chit. The US (Or CW) does a Super Combined. This combo can result in a number of Carpet Bombings and Ground Strikes up and down the line. While the Ally using the Super Combined exploits the weakened hexes. On more than one occasion this Offensive Chit combination has been able to rip holes in the well planned German line.

You can argue that this is an extreme example, 2 offensive chits were used...and of course you would be correct. But it does show that Carpet Bombing can be effective if used in certain situations. And really the only situation carpet Bombing is ever used is by the allies in France.

My initial question was weather or not it is realistic and should be used, as even in this forum there was not even an agreement if one single division was ever destroyed from the air.

Perhaps a better way of effecting carpet bombing results would be to disorganize the units and put them temporarily out of supply (say for the impulse). This would mean that instead of the unit disappearing completely off the map, they would be reduced to 1 or 3 strength points and vulnerable to attacks (even overruns) during the later phases of the impulse. This way, carpet bombed units could recover completely if there were no land units to attack them.

Just an idea.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: gridley
My initial question was weather or not it is realistic and should be used, as even in this forum there was not even an agreement if one single division was ever destroyed from the air.

Well, I'd say yes, it should be used.

The rule as written could be improved, for sure, but even as written it is an expression of a reality, so I think it should be used.

During WW2, it was not so much efficient, and I say that this is because the US were not lucky enough (remember, only 40% when massing 2500 bombers, and just 10% with 1000 bombers) to roll high and destroy a corps. They just heavily damaged the Panzer Lehr.

But it remained an effective tactic, as you saw it used during future wars, with better results.

What is good with WiF is that it allows not only for what happened in WW2, but also for what could have happened. Better carpet bombings could have happened with more luck and more bombers, as obtaining full Geschwaders of Me262 (or none at all, I saw that) could have happened too. Playing without carpet bombing is playing without a possible reality that could have happened, and this is not good for my taste. I like WiF to be open.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Perhaps a better way of effecting carpet bombing results would be to disorganize the units and put them temporarily out of supply (say for the impulse). This would mean that instead of the unit disappearing completely off the map, they would be reduced to 1 or 3 strength points and vulnerable to attacks (even overruns) during the later phases of the impulse. This way, carpet bombed units could recover completely if there were no land units to attack them.

Just an idea.

My take at a different Carpet Bombing rule :

Carpet Bombing is now performed at the same time as ground support in the sequence of play, but still is a different mission with different interceptions, etc…

Carpet bombing planes still use their strategic bombing factors, and still use the regular carpet bombing rules, except that only land units can suffer from Carpet Bombing and that each * (star) obtained on the strategic bombing table give the attacker an added bonus to the attack, +2 for a Corps, +1 for a DIV.

The randomly chosen Corps or DIV is then also destroyed if shattered by the normal combat result, or shattered if suffered no results by the normal combat result, or simply retreated.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: gridley

ORIGINAL: Froonp


More than 50% of the time, Carpet bombing has no result in WiF FE.
Moreover, you need 25 factors (which is 4-5 air units usualy) to have maximum chances of success which are 40% chances.

This looks like pretty much worthless to me, and certainly not overexaggerated.

In France, I have seen carpet bombing be extremely deadly. The CW (or US depending on how you plan it) does an Air Offensive Chit. The US (Or CW) does a Super Combined. This combo can result in a number of Carpet Bombings and Ground Strikes up and down the line. While the Ally using the Super Combined exploits the weakened hexes. On more than one occasion this Offensive Chit combination has been able to rip holes in the well planned German line.

You can argue that this is an extreme example, 2 offensive chits were used...and of course you would be correct. But it does show that Carpet Bombing can be effective if used in certain situations. And really the only situation carpet Bombing is ever used is by the allies in France.

My initial question was weather or not it is realistic and should be used, as even in this forum there was not even an agreement if one single division was ever destroyed from the air.

Perhaps a better way of effecting carpet bombing results would be to disorganize the units and put them temporarily out of supply (say for the impulse). This would mean that instead of the unit disappearing completely off the map, they would be reduced to 1 or 3 strength points and vulnerable to attacks (even overruns) during the later phases of the impulse. This way, carpet bombed units could recover completely if there were no land units to attack them.

Just an idea.

While supply is a good idea, the units have been effectively shattered by the bombardment, and can be reformed if given sufficient time. Depends on how fast you think that should be possible. An impulse, a turn, never... the problem is, everyone has an opinion.