Diary and Map of the Assault on Moscow

[itsjustme0770]

I ran across this on ebay and thought it was one of the more unusual pieces I have seen. Thought you guys might appreciate the link. Seems that the diary includes maps of the assault on Moscow.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2123912594

[Jeff Norton]

Remarkable.....

[davewolf]

Any swastikas or such stuff inside?


That side is blocked her (GER) due to the, ehh, content.

[itsjustme0770]

Yes, there are some swastikas present. Only in the pictures from the diary amd on what appears to be orders to a unit. Nothing overt.

[Lokioftheaesir]

Originally posted by davewolf
Any swastikas or such stuff inside?


That side is blocked her (GER) due to the, ehh, content.

Dave

Are you saying that swastikas are banned in Germany? Mein Gott!!! This is astounding...
Will you rush home and throw on your OberGruppenFuhrer uniform if you see a swastika?
Governments are Loco..

Loki

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Lokioftheaesir
Are you saying that swastikas are banned in Germany? Mein Gott!!! This is astounding...
Will you rush home and throw on your OberGruppenFuhrer uniform if you see a swastika?
Governments are Loco..

You give me a high rank...


No, seriously you have to consider that this ban is originally from the post-WWII era (which you of course know). I'm not sure, but I guess that it was already banned during allied occupation, but I couldn't find a source yet.
However there were more than enough reasons to mistrust the people. Maybe this is no longer necessary in Germany today.

BTW Germany isn't the only country with a Nazi flag ban. AFAIK the swastika flag is also banned in France by an explicit text in their anti-racist law.

[Kuniworth]

In Sweden all nazi and raciaql symbols are forbidden

[Ed Cogburn]

Originally posted by davewolf

No, seriously you have to consider that this ban is originally from the post-WWII era.

You have to wonder if this tactic really works. There is a roughly similar situation in the US with the old Flag of the Confederacy, which many accuse of representing slavery. It hasn't been banned, but it has been removed from public places in various locations. As for the Swastika, does banning it really help? Or does banning the symbol merely give it more power? As I understand it, there are a few NeoNazis in Germany despite the ban on the symbol. The Swastika is ok over here, and yet the Neo Nazi movement is basically unheard of. I remember a demonstration in the Northwest a couple of years ago where a few dozen NeoNazis were met by a few hundred violent counter demonstrators resulting in a riot. I tend to think treating the symbol in a special way *makes* it special, but ignore it, and it will lose its power.

Are German students shown the Swastika in schools, do young Germans even know what it looks like now?

[Montenegro]

Originally posted by davewolf

You give me a high rank...


No, seriously you have to consider that this ban is originally from the post-WWII era (which you of course know). I'm not sure, but I guess that it was already banned during allied occupation, but I couldn't find a source yet.
However there were more than enough reasons to mistrust the people. Maybe this is no longer necessary in Germany today.

BTW Germany isn't the only country with a Nazi flag ban. AFAIK the swastika flag is also banned in France by an explicit text in their anti-racist law.

Davewolf, all,

This thread makes me think of when I was a wee lad of 7 or 8 and discovered in my grandfather's garage a case of some WW 2 items, most notably a swastika arm band. I think I can still feel that shudder I had even as a child of that age knowing what it had represented. He was an arty man and some of his stories were amazing, particularly of seeing his first "jet airplane" (scared the hell out of the them), the Buldge, meeting Russians with women riding on the T 34's right along side the men, and so on. I'm not sure how I feel about this one, but I'm a firm believer in exposing all corners of our history, regardless of the darkness or the light. It's the only way people will hopefully learn the necessary lessons.

Montenegro

[Vern]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn


Are German students shown the Swastika in schools, do young Germans even know what it looks like now?

Of course the swastika is known even by younger Germans. It is often seen in TV documentaries, for example, and is also depicted in school books or history books. But you are not allowed to show it "just for fun". And this is, at least in my opinion, absolutely okay. Nowadays in Germany, the swastika is more used (= scribbled into public lavatories) by pubescent teens than by nazis (and, of course, by the large intersection of these two groups!). Nevertheless, I find it unbearable to think of a neo-nazi demonstration bearing swastikas, and this demonstrations is afterwards shown on a foreign TV. In the US, for example. When I am in the United States, I always find that many Americans have very strange notions concerning Germany or Europe in general. Seeing present-day Germans wearing swastikas wouldn´t improve matters, I´m afraid...

[davewolf]

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn
You have to wonder if this tactic really works. There is a roughly similar situation in the US with the old Flag of the Confederacy, which many accuse of representing slavery. It hasn't been banned, but it has been removed from public places in various locations. As for the Swastika, does banning it really help? Or does banning the symbol merely give it more power? As I understand it, there are a few NeoNazis in Germany despite the ban on the symbol. The Swastika is ok over here, and yet the Neo Nazi movement is basically unheard of. I remember a demonstration in the Northwest a couple of years ago where a few dozen NeoNazis were met by a few hundred violent counter demonstrators resulting in a riot. I tend to think treating the symbol in a special way *makes* it special, but ignore it, and it will lose its power.

Are German students shown the Swastika in schools, do young Germans even know what it looks like now?

Vern gave a good answer. We see it often enough to know how it looks like.

I never thought about that before, because of the circumstances Vern mentioned. But it's of course a logic question from your point of view. Since it is banned, how can we see it at all and so?

In fact it's just like "Mein Kampf". It is not allowed to publish/sell a 1:1 copy here. But it is allowed to publish commented excerpts. The point is which goal does a publisher have? Does he want to spread the Nazi propaganda without criticism or does he try enlighten people? (Which is of course the same for the Neo-Nazi idiots...)

Originally posted by Montenegro
This thread makes me think of when I was a wee lad of 7 or 8 and discovered in my grandfather's garage a case of some WW 2 items, most notably a swastika arm band. I think I can still feel that shudder I had even as a child of that age knowing what it had represented. He was an arty man and some of his stories were amazing, particularly of seeing his first "jet airplane" (scared the hell out of the them), the Buldge, meeting Russians with women riding on the T 34's right along side the men, and so on. I'm not sure how I feel about this one, but I'm a firm believer in exposing all corners of our history, regardless of the darkness or the light. It's the only way people will hopefully learn the necessary lessons.

I see your point, Ed and Montenegro. Vincent Prochelo mentioned something similar at the AoW forum a month or two ago. My answer was that this is one of the things I admire when looking at the US. You have almost all thinkable rights to express politically. And that doesn't destroy your democracy. Au contraire. At last it makes it stronger. I wished it would be that way everywhere.

On the other hand, as I mentioned before, the ban is from a time where there was more than enough reason to mistrust the people's will. Maybe today this is no longer necessary. But if you're once used to a ban - my generation doesn't know a Germany without it - there's just no real reason to eliminate it IMO.

I don't think the Germany we know, couldn't stand some Swastika waving Neo-Nazi idiots. But since it is allowed to show everything in the appropriate way and that is done at school for instance, there's just no need to cancel the ban.

And, Vern mentioned that already, think about the feedback of the rest of the world when they see Neo-Nazis waving the Swastika on TV. So maybe it's not the best to keep the ban, but if we would allow the idiots to use the flag, there's would surely be a serious negative backfire on the other hand, don't you think?


Dave


P.S. Maybe I just repeated some points Vern posted, but it seemed not very polite to me, to not answer at all, though it took some time.

[VictorH]

I don't think bans are needed for symbols such as the Swastika and the Confederate Flag. Any objective student of history knows what they represented to both sides in each conflict. Both times are past and both symbols are representations of defeated philosophies. I wouldn't fly either one and don't understand why some do, netiher represent a positive motive or event in time and both are divisive.

[Montenegro]

Originally posted by VictorH
I don't think bans are needed for symbols such as the Swastika and the Confederate Flag. Any objective student of history knows what they represented to both sides in each conflict. Both times are past and both symbols are representations of defeated philosophies. I wouldn't fly either one and don't understand why some do, netiher represent a positive motive or event in time and both are divisive.

Victor,

True insight. The post Civil War carpet bagger hatred still smoulders in the South a little, though. How many times have you heard the phrase "the war of Northern Aggression?" It's no Sweet Home Alabama if you are from the north in parts of that state and some other areas. People use symbols as their calling card, but I'm more concerned with what's in their heads than what's on the flagpole. I, think, however that the Swastika is where the line gets rightfully drawn.

Regards,

Montenegro

[Lokioftheaesir]

Originally posted by VictorH
I don't think bans are needed for symbols such as the Swastika and the Confederate Flag. Any objective student of history knows what they represented to both sides in each conflict. Both times are past and both symbols are representations of defeated philosophies. I wouldn't fly either one and don't understand why some do, netiher represent a positive motive or event in time and both are divisive.

Victor

Exactly, Swastika to Allied flags. Rebel flag to Union. They are just flags (totems, symbols)
Only an idiot walks around with 'his' flag displayed for all to see.

Those of little mind and less humanity need symbols to say 'this is me'!!. The flag and it's silly little meanings become the totems by which the ignorant define there lives.

Please note, i refer to ALL flags in this.

(yes, nationalism/patriotism is no better. We are all HUMAN BEINGS. Not Ausies or Germans exct..I think the best thing that could hapen to us is that some nasty alien race with little brains should invade the earth ..like the stupid aliens from independence day. We could trash them and realise that our little arguements mean nothing.
Unfortunately i think human beings are so stupid that nothing besides death will turn aside a long held grudge)
(dont agree?? How many examples would you like??)

Loki