Making Money, me vs. AI

[adamc6]

Long time player, infrequent poster.

I'm noticing that the AI nations seems to be VERY rich, while I (usually playing as France) am quite poor.

Now, obviously not having many merchants out on the waves due to RN dominance is a big part of this, but I'm wondering if I'm missing something here.

My army is about the same size as most other major powers (I pay 1796 and 1803 scenarios mostly). So upkeep should be similar.

I build banks, I trade excess resources for cash when I can.

...but Prussia with 4620 gold, while I can barely make 15 per turn?

Something seems amiss.

Thanks in advance for comments and suggestions.

Oh, I usually use a tax rate of about 16 or 18.

[ShaiHulud]

My impression is that the AI nations are spotty in building. Like you, I run my economy right to the edge and rarely have a large bank account. I try to improve all my provinces, particularly those that provide valuable resources.

The AI, otoh, builds a structure/improvement here and there and, often, has very little improvement going on. Their cash just sits there, doing nothing.

My experience is that the fastest way to build up a cash reserve is to win a big war, then, instead of cedeing me provinces, I force the loser to LEND me all his most lucrative provinces for a year. I get all the benefits of owning, stifle my enemy's improvements for a year, and cripple his income for that year, too, while I pile up a large fund.

[adamc6]

thanks -- I guess that does make sense -- I am usually building something in almost every province -- so perhaps that is it -- they just sit on their money.

Though, I do see the AI subsidizing minor nations with VERY large amounts of money EVERY turn. 

I like your "lend provinces" idea -- thanks, will try that out.

[arras]

To me it seems like AI is simply cheating on money. May be also on some other economic aspects. I see AI to do things which would ruin my economy in short order, yet all AI opponents have hold on treasury of at last 1500. I would say, AI is simply getting "free" money. Did you notice for example AI will borrow money from you even if it have treasury overflowing with gold? That doest make sense. AI is simply subjected to different economic ...or at last monetary rules than human player. It would be understandable since managing economy while making war and still present some challenge to player would be probably over its abilities. I usually have to invest on lot of banks first and set my taxes at 30 in order to be able to field reasonable armies in enemy territory, supply them and not to get bankrupted in few days. I saw Spain sending armies against me as Russia putting supply depots all across the Europe not far from start of the game. Try to play Spain and do the same...

P.S.: and here is the answer http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2081636

[jscott991]

The AI is cheating.
 
I couldnt' stand this, so I explored it using the 1803 scenario.  They reach gold totals that simply can't be reached unless they are spending NONE of their startup income on any kind of maintenance.  Since they are also maintaining large armies and fleets, there is no way for them to reach gold totals in the thousands within a few months.
 
It's frustrating for a new player to struggle to keep a positive gold balance, while the AI has 2000-3000 within 6 months.  It makes you feel like you're doing something completely wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. 
 
The AI is cheating in a way that is indefensible on the NORMAL difficulty level.

[dude]

If you play any difficulty beyond the lowest level the AI get's lots of different cheats (bonuses) including econ.
 
I've never really considered giving an AI cheats as increased difficulty... making the AI play better and make fewer mistakes is an increased difficulty in my book.  The one that really bugs me is the bonus damage AI units get with the higher difficutly levels.  Make the AI play poorly or ineffectifly at lower levels and better at higher... don't just give the AI cheats.  But that's just me.
 
So keep in mind even if you play at the "normal" difficulty level... the AI is getting a number of cheats to make it "tougher".

[jscott991]

I thought normal was the last level where the AI didn't get any cheats.
 
Who puts cheats on the "normal" difficulty level!?

[dude]

ORIGINAL: jscott991

I thought normal was the last level where the AI didn't get any cheats.

Who puts cheats on the "normal" difficulty level!?

... that was my mistake too... until I checked the combat reports and saw the AI getting damage bonus for the difficulty... and it was at "normal". When I inquired about it I found out the AI gets a lot of bonuses at all difficulty except the lowest.

I still enjoy the game but would love to see the bonus/cheats relegated to an Options page where I can mix and match just what bonuses the AI gets. Otherwise the difficulty level should be limited to “how” the AI plays.

[jscott991]

Now, I'm quite upset.  What a waste of money!

Does the AI play worse on the lower difficulties or is it simply cheating less?

Is there any way to play this game on a level playing field without the AI being "dumbed down"?

Geez, AI cheating on normal.  This puts Paradox to shame and really discredits this game.  This should be made a lot clearer to prospective buyers.

[Anthropoid]

Unfortunately, AI "cheating" is industry standard at this point. Even the games with the best AI still achieve most of the challenge by handicapping the human compared to the AI.

[Gil R.]

jscott991,
Giving the AI more resources at higher difficulty levels isn't a "cheat" -- it's right there in the manual! I refer you to pg. 11:

"7) Difficulty: The player can choose how difficult the game is at the strategic level. Each level above Normal gives the AI players more resources, military experience, and other material benefits; levels below “Normal” give human players more resources."

So this has never been a secret, though I can't help but wonder why it is that if this issue is so important to you you didn't make sure the AI didn't get resource boosts before your purchase -- you certainly seem to have investigated thoroughly before taking the plunge, as I recall, asking multiple questions on the forum. And even though you've had the game for less than a week, I'd like to think you've read at least eleven pages into the manual and therefore would have known better than to refer to this as an "AI cheat."

I don't know what you were expecting the different difficulty levels to mean: do you really think that in a game with a dozen or so difficulty levels the programmer actually makes the AI a tiny bit smarter at each one?!? COG:EE's AI has been praised by players and reviewers alike, and by that I mean it's ability to think. It's a challenging game without these AI boosts, but players who want a greater challenge have the option of facing up against more powerful opponents.

Finally, I'll just point out that the original COG sold very well -- well enough to warrant this expansion -- and that COG:EE also has been purchased by numerous players, and yet neither in this forum nor the original COG forum (to my recollection) has anyone been nearly as upset as you about this issue.

[jscott991]

The AI is receiving the bonuses at NORMAL, not above normal.  What this implies is that the game begins to give these cheats at the "regular" difficulty levels. Plus the text implies there is no way to play a fair game. I know the AI receives bonuses at normal level, and the manual says I receive bonuses below normal. Where is the fair game!?

I knew it cheated at higher levels, but according to the designer, it is also cheating at lower levels.

THAT is what makes me so angry.

Edit: I won't be posting in this topic again. I don't want to "spam."

[Gil R.]

I've just posted a response on this issue in this thread: tm.asp?m=2081636

Let's try to keep any further discussion in that thread, chosen because the title "AI is cheating???" makes it a strong candidate. Much easier to discuss something in one thread instead of four.