LUNGA: CSLF operatives suffer stunning defeat!

UndercoverNotChickenSalad · Sat Jul 27, 2002 10:59 pm

Me and the Jpas were battling for the island quite a while. They had about 30,000 various troopers to my 27,000 various combat units, all 1st marine units including HQ, 105 tanks, etc.

We kept attacking w/ few hundred losses on each side. I was bombing them w/ lb planes from lau. This went on for about a month I reckon. I was dealing more casualties than I was taking, and through the entire battles I'd lost only 2 tanks out of 105. Then, suddenly, WAMMO !! US LOSSES 26,000 troops to Jpas losing about 200. All brave CSLF mercenaries wiped out!

I can't remember exactly what units were there but I'm positive the majority were combat units. I kept an eye on their supply, a couple units were low but the far majority had plenty. They weren't abandoned either. I had a couple CSLF carriers near and LBA and I was moving in reiforcement and supply.

The Jpas slipped a only a couple beat up APs in there and under heavy attack and uploaded some more dudes before the attack but GESH! 26,000 casualties in one day?

What would cause 26,000 guys to rout and die in just 1 day? I'm no pro, but I'm not an idiot. These were not base forces, they were combat units. As I've said already the entire first marine was there along w/ over 100 tanks.

What the deali-yo? I obviously overlooked something. What was it?

Chicken_Salad, CEO
Chicken Salad Liberation Front

1089 · Post by **1089** » Sun Jul 28, 2002 12:03 am

Was this with the new version, 1.20? If not, they say that they adjusted this behavior in the new version. If so, maybe Erik would want a save game file to experiment with.

kp

UndercoverNotChickenSalad · Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:23 am

1.20.

I can send a save if anyone wants to look at it.

I'm not saying it's a bug, I really have no idea what happened. I didn't save the game I just stopped playing because it was late and I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the casualty report. Maybe I was asleep and it was really all just a UVmare?

Joel Billings · Post by **Joel Billings** » Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:31 am

Did you not own one of the hexes adjacent to Lunga? By the fact that they didn't retreat I assume you didn't. My guess is that you weren't noticing that many of your combat troops were going disabled. As disabled they count as half for total count but have zero combat ability. In adition, your fatigue/disruption was probably very high. It is very possible that your true combat effectiveness was very low. Did you notice the assault value of your units? If your opponent managed to bring in even one fresh regiment of combat troops, it could have tipped the scale more than you would think by just looking at raw troop numbers. Surrounded, with wounded and sick men everywhere, your troops surrendered. At least that's one possible explanation.

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Sun Jul 28, 2002 2:03 am

Field Marshall Sir C. Salad, for uncovering for all of us yet another undocumented feature in UV that is similiar to the ( Coral Island hex Ground Combat one ) in Pac War....reference the Old Pac War manual, pg 36, lower right paragraph, or UV manual Pg. 95, 6th Para. ( which could use some examples IMO ) right J. B..? of course I could be wrong here so sorry if so ...

."....if a unit with low morale, high fatigue cannot retreat, either because it cannot trace a path to another hex ( small island, no where to go ) or does not have the movement points to move into a Jungle Hex , it just surrenders.." what Joel said in a more elegant way...

Looks like your 25,000 guys got Shock Attacked by some small fresh , high quality, unit and all folded...bummer Gen. Sir Salad.

UndercoverNotChickenSalad · Sun Jul 28, 2002 2:50 am

"Looks like your 25,000 guys got Shock Attacked by some small fresh , high quality, unit and all folded...bummer Gen. Sir Salad."

It seems unlikely a force of 26,000 marines capable of causing hundreds of Jpa casualies each day would suddenly and completely evaporate w/in 24 hours.

I'll look at the numbers.

Chicken_Salad, CEO
CSLF

UndercoverNotChickenSalad · Sun Jul 28, 2002 3:59 am

I can't even look at the #s the game obviously saves the turn before I get a chance to do anything about it. The only thing left on the Island is 40 tanks. Every other unit evaporated w/in 1 turn.

A unit in full retreat would at least attempt to enter a hex rather than evaporate? So unless I own a hex it is assumed to be packed full of Jpas?

I'm irritated by this. It seems like readiness would deteriorate over time and be reflected in combat results rather than just a sudden catastrophic failure at division level.

I'll keep closer look at the numbers next time. :rolleyes: What am I suposed to do? Will a vet plz explain good tips on fatigue and maybe explain how best to conduct a long term battle?

Chicken_Salad, CEO
CSLF

Joel Billings · Post by **Joel Billings** » Sun Jul 28, 2002 4:04 am

If the enemy owns the bases surrounding your force, it is assumed you are surrounded in your position within the hex. You need to have a friendly base you can trace a valid supply path to or you surrender when forced to retreat.

Best advice, keep an I on your assualt values. Also, don't rely on the total troop count when you've been fighting. Too many units might be disabled, greatly weakening your combat power.

Maniac · Post by **Maniac** » Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:02 pm

I understand your frustration UndercoverNotChickenSalad, I don't understand why the hell 26k troops would ever just surrender, I mean maybe in the combat scequence if things aren't going well maybe you could have a # of troops that surrendered...letting you know your morale/distruption is in a crappy state...but it just doesn't seem that 26k troops would ever surrender ya know...

bradfordkay · Post by **bradfordkay** » Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:05 pm

".but it just doesn't seem that 26k troops would ever surrender ya know..."

One word: Singapore.

UndercoverNotChickenSalad · Sun Jul 28, 2002 9:37 pm

At what moral level can I expect my entire army to croak, and what can I do about it?

Black Cat · Post by **Black Cat** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 12:47 am

Well, I`m surprised at the lack of response from the Vet UV guys in general ( Joel`s was timely and accurate, as always IMO )

Maybe it`s just summer vacation time.

Anyway in a test, I landed the 1st. Marine Regt. and the 1st Div. HQ directly into the Lunga Hex, not a good plan since the 7 or so Japanese Inf. units dug in there Shock Assulted my guys on the landing turn right into the next hex with big losses.

I guess the only reason they retreated and didn`t fold is that the morale was high and they had very low fatgue.....

In another Game I had 45,000 guys, 1st Marine Div + , Americal Div+ Tank & Eng. Units fighting 46,000 Japanese on Lunga.. in reality you couldn`t fit 90,000 troops on Lunga...anyway....I finally won, but lost too many AP`s to the Shortland/Rabual LBA

In this Game I would say it is very difficult to hew to a Historical Time Line, or replicate Historical Ground Combat results...the AI tends to quickly pack the bases with many units and digs them in, especially Lunga by 8/42.

So.. I would consider by passing bases, Island Hopping as they called it.

If not that spend more time trying to use LBA and Naval Air to isolate a base, therby reducing the supply/morale before assulting. Using Eng. and Base units to build a Base and an Airbase on a nearby Beach/Island Hex, so you can use your short Range LBA works too but takes time.

I also would consider pulling out the assault troops if you don`t take the Base on the first attack.

And finally ( no cheering....Please ) I consider the PM - Lae - Gasmata axis of advance more attractive then the Lunga-Shortlands one.

HMSWarspite · Post by **HMSWarspite** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 1:31 am

Originally posted by Black Cat
[SNIP]
In another Game I had 45,000 guys, 1st Marine Div + , Americal Div+ Tank & Eng. Units fighting 46,000 Japanese on Lunga.. in reality you couldn`t fit 90,000 troops on Lunga...anyway....I finally won, but lost too many AP`s to the Shortland/Rabual LBA

Why do you say you couldn't get 90k troops at Lunga? These are 30 mile hexes remember. Lots of jungle. If you can feed 'em, they'll certainly fit! (German 6th army at Stalingrad - c220k Ge troops in a 30x25mile pocket - most of it Steppe).

Wilhammer · Post by **Wilhammer** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 3:12 am

I seriously doubt US Marines and other US personnel would surrender to Japanese troops in such numbers under ANY circumstances, esp. after they heard of the massacres at Wake Island and in the Phillipines with Americans and others in Hong Kong, etc.

If you read on the Guadalcanal Campaign, you will find that except in VERY SMALL numbers, neither side surrendered, for both sides were convinced they would be killed anyway.

In the Tulagi operation, the Marines found out the hard way that the Japanese would not go down easily (I think 6 japs survived it), and the Marines (and Army) did not quit there jobs in such fashion.

Same goes for the other combatants after the shock of the initial Japanese conquests was felt.

A 30 mile Hex covers a lot of ground, so much so I see no reason why opposing sides could not occupy it and be almost unaware of each other, as was the case near Lunga.

Before the 'final' patch is issued, a finer look at ground combat needs to be done.

bradfordkay · Post by **bradfordkay** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 9:42 am

Very good point Wilhammer. My comment was fired off as a smart *** one liner, and wasn't thoroughly thought out. My apologies...you ar equite right... at this point of the war few troops were surrendering in the pacific theatre.

Maniac · Post by **Maniac** » Tue Jul 30, 2002 11:11 am

Originally posted by bradfordkay
Very good point Wilhammer. My comment was fired off as a smart *** one liner, and wasn't thoroughly thought out. My apologies...you ar equite right... at this point of the war few troops were surrendering in the pacific theatre.

your forgiven

LUNGA: CSLF operatives suffer stunning defeat!

LUNGA: CSLF operatives suffer stunning defeat!

Version 1.20?

And the winner for today is...

My 2 cents: You get what you pay for..

Re: My 2 cents: You get what you pay for..