AE Land and AI Issues [OUTDATED]

[Don Bowen]

I have a copy of this TOE, in J.J. Hays series (http://www.militarypress.co.uk/us_milit ... oundForces). Hays' stuff is absolutely excellent, by the way, but not cheap and the rest of the Coast Artillery plus the Field Artillery and Engineer volumes are still in preparation (J.J. Hays is active on another forum and has given me an approximate release schedule - rest of Coast Artillery this fall, others in next year).

I have noticed some interesting flucuations in the allocations of the 50Cal. In all variations in appears that a single 50Cal accompanies each 3inch AA gun for close in protection. In various TOs the 50Cal is in the same firing section as the 3inch (i.e. a section of one each in a battery of four each), or in a separate platoon in the same battery (i.e. 4 firing sections of one 3inch each plus a platoon of four 50Cal), or in a separate battalion but intended for support of a 3in battery on a one-platoon to one-battery level. Later TOs drop off the number of 50Cals

Both the Mobile AA (TO 4-11) and Semi-Mobile AA (TO 4-111) of November, 1940 specify two AA battalions, each with 12 3inch and 12 50Cal, and an Automatic Weapons Battalion with 32 37mm. The April, 1942 Semi Mobile changes to one AA battalion of 16 3inch/90mm and 16 MG, one Automatic Weapons Battalion with 32 37mm/40mm and 32 50Cal, and consolidates all the searchlight units in a Searchlight Battalion with 20 Searchlights and 20 50Cal. This (the 4/42) version very precisely shows the allocation of a 50Cal for close-in defense of every larger weapon.

What I do not find is an AA battalion TO for the 48 50Cal MGs. Perhaps it is just a variation used when there were insufficient 37mm guns available. Maybe an older TOE (Hays is World War II only).

Anyway, it's this little detail stuff that drives my crazy. I'll bet you all were wondering what did it.....

[HistoryGuy]

Don,

If you have some US artillery units you would like me to look up (we have most, if not all TOEs dating back to at least 1940), send me some candidates. Whenever I have time, I can take a gander or two at them. We also have the complete Japanese mongraph series, or at least it sure looks like we do!

Now back to work (for me).........

[Dili]

How the .5 Quads were counted? By mount or by machine gun?

And how do model the mixed mount 37mm AA Gun with a 2x 0.5? [:D]

[DuckofTindalos]

If you read his post properly, there is no mention of any "mixed mount".

[HistoryGuy]

With the 1940/42 T/O's, there are no multiple barrel AA weapons. The 37-mm is a single barrel on a ground mount (similar to German 37-mm system) as are the .50-caliber weapons - I believe they were on AA tripods. Not sure if they were water cooled or air cooled.

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: HistoryGuy

Don,

If you have some US artillery units you would like me to look up (we have most, if not all TOEs dating back to at least 1940), send me some candidates. Whenever I have time, I can take a gander or two at them. We also have the complete Japanese mongraph series, or at least it sure looks like we do!

Now back to work (for me).........

Thanks. Don't want to impinge on your good nature too much. I'm reasonably satisified with the data I now have. Looks like the 60th did not match any of the TOEs that apply to Semi-Mobile AA Regiments. Two battalions with 12 3inch guns and NO 50Cal, one battalion with 48 50Cal.

I apologize for asking, but I am having a devil of a time finding TOs for the Engineer Boat and Shore Regiments. Trying to get numbers of LCVP and LCM in the boat battalion and crew served weapons in the shore battalion (I know there were HMG and anti-tank guns from reading various histories).

[m10bob]

http://www.antiaircraft.org/50mg.htm

[m10bob]

Combat narrative of Btty "C", 60th....

http://corregidor.org/ca/btty_chicago/chicago.htm

Gives details of the TOE...

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Combat narrative of Btty "C", 60th....

http://corregidor.org/ca/btty_chicago/chicago.htm

Gives details of the TOE...

Thanks. Actually have the gun assignments of the batteries but they do not match any known TOE. About half the 3inch batteries did not have any 50Cal while all available TOEs called for 4 per battery. Just can't find a TOE that specifies a light AA battalion with 48 MG. Suspect it is an older variation and the 60th never got up to the 11/40 TOE. Fully equipped, it should have had 24 3inch, 24 50Cal, 32 37mm, about 30 searchlights.

[HistoryGuy]

I will look tomorrow - I have encountered a brief delay (ends tomorrow night) in my current writing project. Plus the folks in the Force Organization Branch made the mistake today of showing me where they kept the MTOEs stored!

As mentioned earlier, the Army had MTOEs for Coast Artillery AA machinegun companies when CA Bns consisted of a search light company, 75-mm gun battery, and AA machinegun battery. I think they took what they could get, to include volunteers from the infantry for additional manpower, to form the 3d battalion. When I am looking for the Engineer Shore Regiment stuff I will check for a CA AA MG battalion - but I dont think one existed (formally).

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: HistoryGuy

I will look tomorrow - I have encountered a brief delay (ends tomorrow night) in my current writing project. Plus the folks in the Force Organization Branch made the mistake today of showing me where they kept the MTOEs stored!

As mentioned earlier, the Army had MTOEs for Coast Artillery AA machinegun companies when CA Bns consisted of a search light company, 75-mm gun battery, and AA machinegun battery. I think they took what they could get, to include volunteers from the infantry for additional manpower, to form the 3d battalion. When I am looking for the Engineer Shore Regiment stuff I will check for a CA AA MG battalion - but I dont think one existed (formally).

I have not enough words to express my gratitude for your help, so I'll just use one. Thanks!

[HistoryGuy]

Engineer Boat and Shore Regiment - T/O 5-111S dated 21 April 1943

Boat Battalion x1 T/O 5-515S
Shore Battalion x1 T/O 5-525S
Regimental Hqs T/O 5-512S
Headquarters Company T/O 5-512S
Medical Detachment
Chaplain (attached)

Boat Bn - 44 officers and 1,041 enlisted
Shore Bn - 25 officers and 676 enlisted
Aggregate for Regiment 95 officers, 2 Warrants, and 1,931 enlisted

Shore Bn Weapons:
503 M1A2 carbines
six 50.caliber M2 machineguns
twelve 30.caliber M191A4 machineguns
six 37-mm M3A1 anti-tank guns
143 Grenade launchers, M1
43 Grenade launchers, M7
eighteen 2.36 inch bazookas
two M1911A1 pistols
53 M1 Garands
143 M1903 Springfields

Vehicles:
4 jeeps
one 3/4 ton command car
five one-ton trailers
nine 1-1/2 ton trucks with winch
12 DUKWs
five 2-1/2 ton trucks with winch
one 4-ton wrecker
one 6-ton prime mover

Boat Battalion

90 LCVP
90 LCM-3
11 patrol boats
one Salvage boat

Crewed served weapons/individual weapons for boat battalion:

186 .50 caliber M2 machineguns
218 M191A4 .30 caliber machineguns
66 bazookas
841 carbines
242 M1903 Springfields
two M1911A1 pistols

vehicles:

7 2-1/2 ton trucks
3 2-1/2 ton (700 gallon) fuelers
7 trailers (1-ton)
8 jeeps
5 1-1/2 ton trucks

There is a 7 April 1944 MTOE for the EBSR that looks pretty much the same with one big exception: Boat Battalion now has 372 .50-caliber machineguns

The predecessor to the EBSR is the Engineer Boat Regiment?? (T/O dated 23 July 1942)
Personnel includes 171 officers and 3,350 enlisted

It has a lighter company and three boat battalions (no shore battalion per se), regimental Hqs, Hqs Co. medical detachment and chaplain

360 boat, landing surf
50 boat, command and communications
16 boat, control
3 boat, fire
144 lighters, tank

major weapons in regiment (aggregate):

580 .30-caliber machineguns
580 .50-caliber machineguns
3,115 Garand M1 rifles
163 M1903 Springfields
241 carbines
10 M1911A1 pistols
no 37-mm AT guns


Vehicles in EBR:
39 jeeps
24 3/4-ton command cars
29 2-1/2 ton trucks
three 6-ton cargo trucks
three 2000 gallon fuelers
1 wrecker
3 angledozers (bulldozers?)

[Don Bowen]

Thank you Mark. I've been looking for this for over a year!

[Dili]

Would this data be good to Shore Regiments in Mediterranean 42/43? Btw Morrison says they were a complete disaster in Husky.

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: HistoryGuy
Engineer Boat and Shore Regiment - T/O 5-111S dated 21 April 1943

Just caught up with this thread a couple days ago and moseyed on down to Pendleton to dig up the T/Os for Don. But you snatched the prize. Way to go Mark!

Re the .50 cals, they are listed separate from the ‘equipment’ they sit on. This is so the REMFs can calculate how many armorers and ordnance sergeants a unit gets. The .50s were 1 per boat, early, then upped to 2 per boat, with a few more here & there for the beach command. There was always more .50 cal fixtures than authorized weapons, so …

ORIGINAL: Dili
Would this data be good to Shore Regiments in Mediterranean 42/43? Btw Morrison says they were a complete disaster in Husky.

1st Eng Special Brigade, activated 15 June, ‘42 as 1st Eng Amphibian Brigade, deployed 5 Aug. ’42. Redesignated 1st Eng Special Brigade, 14 May, ’43. Included:
531st Eng Boat Regt, organized under T/O 5-511
591st Eng Shore Regt, organized under T/O 5-521

[HistoryGuy]

Anything to help AE on its way.  The other good news is that the very nice young lady who helped me find the engineer information let me know that its all on an internal server in digital form.  So I am going to ask the IT manager for access permissions.  Beats looking through dusty boxes!

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: HistoryGuy

Anything to help AE on its way.  The other good news is that the very nice young lady who helped me find the engineer information let me know that its all on an internal server in digital form.  So I am going to ask the IT manager for access permissions.  Beats looking through dusty boxes!

Let's hear it for Mark and for nice young ladies!

[JWE]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Let's hear it for Mark and for nice young ladies!

To Mark, and The Nice Young Ladies !!

[HistoryGuy]

Now I have ALL the electrons.  Its mostly in PDF files.  I dont see how to attach them to forum messages, but I can email them as needed.

Don, I owe you an apology about the Coast Artillery AA MG Battalions. There IS a T/O for that organization.

T/O 4-165 dated 1 October 1939 (note: that T/O number reassigned to CA separate Searchlight Battalion in 1942)

Coast Artillery Battalion, Separate, Machinegun, Anti-aircraft, Mobile

Headquarters and Headquarters Battery
four firing batteries (x12 .50-caliber MG each)
Medical detachment
Chaplain

Wartime authorized strength: 33 officers and 703 enlisted (including 87 cadre)

armament:

forty eight .50-caliber MGs
68 M1911A1 pistols
23 BARs
621 M1903 Springfields

Vehicles:
1 Ambulance
1 5-passenger sedan
seven motorcycles
nineteen 1/2 ton pickups
ten 1/2 command and reconnaissance cars
117 (!!) 1-1/2 ton trucks

[Don Bowen]

Cool, Thanks!