The First Team: Take Two!

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Q-Ball - IF they were trying a raid why did they hang around for Day 2? I can't come up with anything other than foolishness and poor play as the answer to that.

They didn't intend to hang around, it was a tactical mistake. The mistake was that they shouldn't have been there in the first place with 2 CVs when KB was almost certainly there, but it would have turned out OK for them if they had managed to get out of there.

They didn't, and far as I can tell for a couple reasons:

1) They approached Palmyra from the ESE, then withdrew NORTH. That limited the distance that they could put between them and KB. Had they launched the Yamato killing strike from directly NORTH of Palmyra, a withdrawl to Pearl would have headed directly away from the island, rather than accross it.
2) Probably the DD's topped off, and likely the TF also reacted. But if they hadn't done #1, that wouldn't have been a problem. This just slowed them enough to get killed. Setting the base to Palmyra or Johnston or somewhere closer would have prevented DD top-off.

Basically, they meant to withdraw, but weren't aggressive about getting the heck out of there, when KB was confirmed to be around (by the Zero Cap over Yamato). That's the problem.

[Nemo121]

Well, if it wasn't intended as a decisive engagement then it is still a sign of poor play.  At this point in time trying to "sting" the schwerpunkt is something which is never going to work. You don't launch a spoiling attack AT the schwerpunkt when it is rolling ( which is what you are saying they tried ). That's suicidal.
 
No matter how you parse it or what you say they "might" have been doing it just doesn't look good in terms of strategic nous.

[flaggelant]

i'd say a fort 6 is pretty much built for defence, but without troops it is/was useless..
 
 
On attacking the schwerpunkt (you German Nemo?) it's not always suicidal, i'm quiet sure you noticed
John's attack on Timor (in his game on the other dark side [8|] ) where he was facing 2 car divs.
 
The way Q says it, it sounds logical (in the way that they werent crazy, just not paying that much attention),
it was probably the routing planned to get out of reach that made it a desastre for the allied CV's, Would it have worked (by moving away eastwards for example), it would have been a very good manouver (except for leaving that island garrison)
 
  

[Nemo121]

Flaggelant,
Aye but the difference between that game and this is that what was being posited here was a spoiling attack. What John was doing in his other game wasn't constituted at a spoiling attack - it was an attempt to take a bit out of the schwerpunkt --- which is an entirely different beast.
 
 
Flaggelant... Ok, then if you want to give them props for building level 6 points let me point out their poor play in not actually putting sufficient troops there.
 
 
Again, feel free to make all the allowances you want and build these opponents up into people who have hidden depths etc etc. It still doesn't change the objective facts.

[John 3rd]

Gentlemen:

This is a good discussion to read.  I've been out all day with my Father so haven't been able to comment.

My perspective is pretty simple.  Paul screwed up.  It is that simple.  I think he ordered Lexington's TF to move away but forgot to do the same with Enterprise and Hornet.  The simple reality is that the Lex TF was at least 8-10 hexes north of Palmyra while the other CTF stayed right where it was.  To me this is a huge error of not double checking one's orders. 

The raid was well executed the first day and had they moved all three CVs away we would be having a FAR different conversation n'est pas?

[Nemo121]

Not really, if they were going to make a sting then either they should have supported the sting at your schwerpunkt by having Palmyra be too strong to fall easily or they should have stung elsewhere while your KB was at Palmyra.
 
Still, on with the game and all that. People's opinions differ and that's just fine.

[John 3rd]

I kept wondering when a bunch of LBA was going to "appear" at Canton since he spotted me 3-4 days away.  That was my initial fear...
 

[Hornblower]

i'll be honest i had to look up "schwerpunkt"

[stuman]

So you were not paying attention that day in your 5th grade German military history class ?

[Hornblower]

Apparently not... dang wonder what else i missed?  [8|]

[Nemo121]

What else did you miss? Nahverteidigungswaffen .. Old, old-school CMers from 2001 to 2003 will get that. Everyone else will be kinda mystified. Read up on it though (wikipedia should have something ). If not there then Markus Hofbauer has an excellent page.

[stuman]

Ah, the smoke discharge accessory. I learned about it in my 6th grade Armored Fighting Vehicle class, which was right before lunch period, and right after Close Air Support For Grade Schoolers [;)]
 
Actually Nemo121 I did want to say how much I enjoyed reading your comments. I find them always interesting.

[John 3rd]

Combat Report
July 12, 1942

How about we change the subject to the Western Indian Ocean? On the previous day the 3 R-Class British BBs hit Bombay with a bombardment. They accomplished very little and managed to get away with it when weather closed Poona down and our Bettys did not fly.

Luckily everything worked today! As shown in the screenshot, the elderly British BBs did not steam far enough away to escape the range of Miss Betty.A total of 34 Betty strike at the British Fleet and all three R-Class are hit!

Results are:
Resolution 2 TT--On Fire
Ramilles 2 TT--Heavy Damaged
Royal Sovereign 1 TT--On Fire
2 DD 1 TT

Wonder if they will be out of range tomorrow????

Meanwhile...Karachi is hit for the 3rd time in 4 days by a force of 76 Fighters and 123 Bombers. The Allies put up their normal 52 VERY Tired Fighters. For 13 Oscars and 4 Zero, the Allies lose 29 Fighters in the air and a further 23 on the ground. The Bomber Force loses 13 Wellington and 3 B-24! Total for the strike is Japan 17 F and 5 Bombers in exchange for 52 Fighters and 16 Bombers. VERY NICE!

[John 3rd]

Brad and I have been chatting some and are thinking about some options regarding the change within the the strategic calculus after our victory at Palmyra.  Here are some of the options we are thinking on:

KB
1.  Pull out the 3 CVL and send them to the IO to link-up with the Junyos, 2 CVL, and 3 CVE to form a strike force that should utterly destroy anything the British have and clear the sea lanes so nothing can reach Bombay and/or Karachi.  If we do this then I will pull all 6 remaining CV to the Home Islands for R&R, upgrade, and replacement of lost pilots.  The worst of the 6 heavies is at System 8 so repair and upgrade will not take too long.  We can base the expanded IO Fleet at Columbo and be in solid shape.

NOTE:  Brad I will need to replace roughly 50 lost planes/pilots.  Do we have that ability to do so in about 2 weeks? 

2.  With the Americans so stung by their loss my immediate inclination is to Raid along their supply lines.  I could take the 6 or 9 CV/CVL and send them east of Pearl Harbor or down towards Papeate to sink convoys.  That could be quite fun for a bit.

3.  Decisively move into Gulf of Alaska and sink everything I can find.  We know Lexington was present through July 12th so this could be fun as well.  Could also serve to derail any further moves in the North for a while.

No matter what I will need to replace lost pilots.

No plan is settled and won't be for at least 4 turns until the CVs are all in one place.  What do people think?

[John 3rd]

HEY!  What is this deviousness you have started Mr. Roper?  Just spotted your new Thread that doesn't allow the PLAYERS of the First Team into it.  This is a novel approach to have a Thread where the players of the campaign aren't allowed to comment!  [:D][8D][:D]

Have good time with it! 

[Canoerebel]

John, I started that separate thread to ask a question that I couldn't ask in either of the two "real" Better Team/Best Team threads.
 
As for your options, all have merit.  It's tough to choose between three enticing options.  It's always tough to take the time to send carriers home for upgrading, so I'd lean towards that option.  But I'm more conservative than you are!

[Q-Ball]

John, we can replace the pilots; the Val and Kate pilots are pretty easy, we are a little short on Zero pilots. We have 4 Zero Daitai basically on defensive duty in the Pacific, given that loss on their part, we can safely pull one apart for replacements if we need to. It will take a couple days, I would probably pull them all to Truk to make that all happen; they will also repair some OPS damage, which needs to happen.

With the Betty hit on the RN BB's, I doubt they will get too close to the Indian coast anymore. I would love the RN CVs to come out and play, but I doubt they will.

BTW, we only saw R-Class BBs in those bombardment runs, I bet PoW and Repulse are in Australia. We know Hermes is at Aden, and probably all the other RN CVs as well. They have paid the PP penalties to keep them, so we know they are there.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
We know Hermes is at Aden, and probably all the other RN CVs as well. They have paid the PP penalties to keep them, so we know they are there.

Huh? I'm not sure I understand. British ships don't need to be in Aden for you to forfeit PP by refusing to send them home. They can be anywhere. IE, if the Brit player has all RN carriers in Australia, and gets notice he must send a CVL home or pay 2,000 political points, he can just ignore the demand, keep all those carriers in Australia, and forfeit the 2k PP at month's end.

[Hornblower]

Hummm…… [8|][&:][8|]
 
All the options seem to have a good upside.
I tend to like option 2.
You might be able to catch a nice fat troop transport outbound from San Fran..
Why do I like option 2?  Well for the reason above, and after your done making a nuisance of yourself, I would think he’d have to keep his surviving CV’s between Pearl and the west coast to prevent a repeat.
Also you might be able to link option 3 in at the tail end?  Swing up from Canton,  hang out in the tropic of Cancer for a bit, and if you have the fuel, swing up to the north pacific for a dance or two before heading home.

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
We know Hermes is at Aden, and probably all the other RN CVs as well. They have paid the PP penalties to keep them, so we know they are there.

Huh? I'm not sure I understand. British ships don't need to be in Aden for you to forfeit PP by refusing to send them home. They can be anywhere. IE, if the Brit player has all RN carriers in Australia, and gets notice he must send a CVL home or pay 2,000 political points, he can just ignore the demand, keep all those carriers in Australia, and forfeit the 2k PP at month's end.

We had search aircraft based at Trivandrum no later than 5/1/42, and we had search aircraft at Exmouth about 2/15/42. So, there is a good chance we would have seen any RN ships in transit from India to Australia after those dates.

I don't have the dates in front of me, but 1 RN CV comes in before 2/1, and 2 come in after. We haven't seen them in transit. So, they either have to be a) in the Indian Ocean, or b) sent home. But we know from PP penalties they weren't sent home. So they are somewhere in the IO. Only safe place is Aden. So they are there.