Bizarre naval move

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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Froonp
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RE: Bizarre naval move

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Orm
And since 7m had the same rule (16.2) as RAC I reasoned that 7m might be the latest version. [:(]

Here is 16.2 from RAC version 20 from 13 April 2009 (the latest) :
***********************************************************
16.2 Naval action
If you play an offensive chit at the start of a naval action, specify one of your organized HQs that is in a port hex. Any naval or aircraft unit stacked in that hex that initiates a naval combat (see 11.5.2) may require one or both sides to re-roll dice in any round of naval combat this impulse. The number of re-rolls available is equal to the specified HQ’s reorganization value.
After naval movement, but before any combats, you allocate the available re-rolls to sea areas that contain a naval or aircraft unit that: (1) started the impulse stacked with the designated HQ and (2) will initiate naval combat in the sea area. The total re-rolls allocated can not exceed the specified HQ’s reorganization value.
In each round of naval combat, immediately after any roll (search, air-to-air, anti-aircraft, or defense) is made by either side in a sea area, the player conducting the naval offense may spend one of his available re-rolls in that sea area by demanding a re-roll. This reduces the number of re-rolls available in the sea area. Re-rolls may be re-rolled. Any re-rolls still available at the end of the impulse are discarded.

Example: Nimitz is in Pearl Harbor stacked with 3 SCS and a P-38G FTR. Jay plays a naval offensive on Nimitz at the start of his naval action. Jay flies the Lightning into the 4 box of the Hawaiian Islands and moves the 3 SCSs into the 4 box of the Marshalls sea area. At the end of naval movement, Jay allocates 1 re-roll to the Hawaiian Islands, and 2 re-rolls to the Marshalls. During naval combat Jay initiates a search in the Marshalls using one of the SCS units. Jay rolls a 4 and decides to keep it. Kasigi then rolls a 2. Jay demands a re-roll and Kasigi rolls a 9. Jay decides to save his additional re-roll for a subsequent search. However, all the Japanese ships abort after the first round of combat so the remaining re-roll in the Marshalls is discarded.
***********************************************************

Here is 16.2 from RAW7m (I kept each and every version of RAW that was published, for reference) :
***********************************************************
If you play an offensive chit at the start of a naval action, specify 1 of your face-up HQs that is in a port hex. Immediately turn face-up every naval unit controlled by your major power (CVPiF/SiF option 56: and carrier plane on a CV) in that port, in one sea area the port borders, and in every port adjacent to that sea area. If the port borders 2 or more areas, you choose which gets this benefit.
***********************************************************

Not the same.

Your RAC must be outdated.
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Froonp
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RE: Bizarre naval move

Post by Froonp »

Having quoted both the RAC's 16.2 and the latest (Annual 2008) 16.2, I notice that RAC 20's 16.2 was not modified to include this errata. It still only mentions search rolls when the latest version also other rolls (search, air-to-air, anti-aircraft, or defense).

Is this deliberate, or was it forgotten ?
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Orm
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RE: Bizarre naval move

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Not the same.

Your RAC must be outdated.

Indeed it was.

It annoys me is that I had the updated RAC with the latest version of MWiF and I did not look there instead.
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Zorachus99
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RE: Bizarre naval move

Post by Zorachus99 »

Apparantly I didn't understand the bizarre naval move: It's been redefined for me to be:

The way you use 1 naval move to get to ship 4 Finnish units out is like this (note that this takes place over two turns).

1. Turn 1: move your amph and TRS to the 1-box in the Baltic and pick up two corps from Finland. Debark them with land moves somewhere handy. Latvia maybe.

2. At the end of turn, move the TRS and AMPH down a box to the 0 box.

3. Turn 2: make sure the other two Finnish units you want are in a port (e.g. Helsinki)

4. At the end of turn, rebase your AMPH and TRS into Helsinki, embark 2 more corps or the ski div or something, back to the Baltic, back to a port somewhere (Estonia?).

Ta da. Four units moved, 2 lift, 1 naval move.
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Zorachus99
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RE: Bizarre naval move

Post by Zorachus99 »

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

People should also be aware of this move - I wasn't - that you can move a TRS out to sea with cargo, have the units move off the transport, reorganize the transport at sea, the next turn you can return to base moving a unit from one port to another. This is very helpful to Germany who doesn't do naval actions often. In this way, with 1 naval move you can transport 2 corps units to Finland over 2 turns.

IMHO this ability should be clearly outlined in the rules, not the product of referencing several rules and interpreting them. All of this is based on the key phrase, "You return units to base like a normal naval move except in reverse." I don't find the language particularly clear.

On the otherhand I do not propose changing anything either, I'm sure Steve is well past code freeze for features or changes.

You are not allowed to reorganize units at sea unless you play an offensive and that seems an expensive way for Germany to transport units to Finland.

From 11.18.4 Reorganising:
"You can never reorganise aircraft or naval units at sea - they must be in a hex (exception: Offensive chits in a naval action ~ see 16.2)."

Guess what I found out...

11.18.4 is for the reorganisation step at the end of the impulse (using HQ, ATR and the like), not at the end of the turn which is called final reorganisation and is rule 13.5.
13.5 says: "Turn all face down units face-up (including units that have stayed at sea and units that are out of supply)".
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RE: Bizarre naval move

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Apparantly I didn't understand the bizarre naval move: It's been redefined for me to be:

The way you use 1 naval move to get to ship 4 Finnish units out is like this (note that this takes place over two turns).

1. Turn 1: move your amph and TRS to the 1-box in the Baltic and pick up two corps from Finland. Debark them with land moves somewhere handy. Latvia maybe.

2. At the end of turn, move the TRS and AMPH down a box to the 0 box.
And they are reorganized.
3. Turn 2: make sure the other two Finnish units you want are in a port (e.g. Helsinki)

4. At the end of turn, rebase your AMPH and TRS into Helsinki, embark 2 more corps or the ski div or something, back to the Baltic, back to a port somewhere (Estonia?).

Ta da. Four units moved, 2 lift, 1 naval move.
2 TRS, 4 units moved, 2 naval moves (the rebase of step 4 is also a naval move), over 2 turns.

Nothing special here, you could have done the same without using this "trick" you call it, that is normal rule.

What you have discovered here, is that it allow to transport units without choosing a Combined or Naval action. Great, welcome to the naval oriented player's club, but it is common play for every self respecting CW player [;)]

The downside of such a manoeuver is that you have to stay at sea all the turn, which can be unhealthy depending on the sea area. You could also have transported those 4 units with those 2 TRS over 2 turns, and without staying at sea too, but needing to choose a naval or combined action. You have the choice.
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RE: Bizarre naval move

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Great, welcome to the naval oriented player's club, but it is common play for every self respecting CW player [;)]
Hey, I think I just made a "snide remark" that Willy was talking about in the other thread [:D]
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Zorachus99
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RE: Bizarre naval move

Post by Zorachus99 »

Your snide detector is functioning [:D]

Never seen a person do that move in 20 years... nearly 20 different game partners. Surprizing eh?
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Orm
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RE: Bizarre naval move

Post by Orm »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Apparantly I didn't understand the bizarre naval move: It's been redefined for me to be:

The way you use 1 naval move to get to ship 4 Finnish units out is like this (note that this takes place over two turns).

1. Turn 1: move your amph and TRS to the 1-box in the Baltic and pick up two corps from Finland. Debark them with land moves somewhere handy. Latvia maybe.

2. At the end of turn, move the TRS and AMPH down a box to the 0 box.
And they are reorganized.
3. Turn 2: make sure the other two Finnish units you want are in a port (e.g. Helsinki)

4. At the end of turn, rebase your AMPH and TRS into Helsinki, embark 2 more corps or the ski div or something, back to the Baltic, back to a port somewhere (Estonia?).

Ta da. Four units moved, 2 lift, 1 naval move.
2 TRS, 4 units moved, 2 naval moves (the rebase of step 4 is also a naval move), over 2 turns.

Nothing special here, you could have done the same without using this "trick" you call it, that is normal rule.

What you have discovered here, is that it allow to transport units without choosing a Combined or Naval action. Great, welcome to the naval oriented player's club, but it is common play for every self respecting CW player [;)]

The downside of such a manoeuver is that you have to stay at sea all the turn, which can be unhealthy depending on the sea area. You could also have transported those 4 units with those 2 TRS over 2 turns, and without staying at sea too, but needing to choose a naval or combined action. You have the choice.

If step 4 is at return to base you get the last two corps into Finland without making another naval move. So 4 corps into Finland for 1 naval moce is possible but take some time.
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RE: Bizarre naval move

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

Your snide detector is functioning [:D]

Never seen a person do that move in 20 years... nearly 20 different game partners. Surprizing eh?
Wonderful - that's likely 20 other people you can "educate" by doing it to them.[;)]

And as Patrice says, it took the same number of naval moves and the same number of turns. But if someone was utterly desperate and willing to take naval actions and flip HQs, they can get all kinds of units from one side to the other side of a sea area. There are other tricks like breaking down INF corps the turn before, and taking the INF Divs on SCSs and the Mot Divs on TRSs and then recombining the units.
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RE: Bizarre naval move

Post by SLAAKMAN »

I have just dicovered that a face-up SCS can be in the 0 box at the end of the turn, and then during the return to base phase, you can: move the SCS to a port, embark a division, continue moving with the embarked division to another port, and then finally return to port in another port if the SCS had a 6 movement and range.
It is a beautiful rule and I condone its useage and angling extensively. [:D]
Because a A result means that the units sufferend some combat damages that makes them needing to go back to port for repairs, so embarking units on the way seems not to be a valid option for these ships.

But as RAW is written now, this is allowed.
We have gladly used & abused this action with glee & forboding indulgence. Image
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