Pearl - one hour alert

[borner]

I did not want to hijack Joe's Pearl Harbor alerted thread, but I have a question I thought was interesting and looking for opinions.

What if the warning from Washington was received,and the radar contact thought to be the B-17 flight was identified as the KB's first strike wave. I figure that would give Pearl about an hour to get ready for the attack, perhaps less. What actions could realistically be done in that time? How many fighters were avaialble to get airborn? Ect.

The ships could have made it to battle stations. Not sure if they could get underway, and probably better not to, as if a large ship was sunk in the entry to the harbor, it would have been blocked for some time.

opinoins?

[HMAS Sydney]

Were the planes parked wingtip to wingtip armed and fueled?  If not how long would it have taken them to be armed and fueled to get any decent number in the air?  Realistically I'd assume it was only the AF that could really have done something about the Japanese. 

[DuckofTindalos]

An hour is probably too short to make any meaningful preparations. There'd be a lot of asking for confirmation, and then the bombs would begin falling.

[vettim89]

I would think two or three days may have made a difference but not an hour. The Army had a lot of mobile AAA that was not set up. Those devices that were in place had no ready ammo.

I really fault Short more than Kimmel. Short concentrated his aircraft because of the perceived sabotage threat. He had two full infantry divisions available to him to guard the aircraft! Heaven forbid that the soldiers actually would have required to be soldiers (even on the weekend). A lot has been written about how Washington failed to warn PH. I don't know if it would have mattered because Short and to a lesser degree Kimmel were still in peace time mind sets worrying about trivial administrative details rather than getting their units on a war footing.

[HMAS Sydney]

Well to be fair, unlike what the movie Pearl Harbor said, no one thought PH was in any danger even if war did break out. 

[borner]

that led to my question. What if they finally figured it out with the radar contact. How many planes, what prep, ect, can get done realistically in an hour? Given the situation at the different bases.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: HMAS Sydney

Well to be fair, unlike what the movie Pearl Harbor said, no one thought PH was in any danger even if war did break out. 

I agree that no one thought PH would be attacked by aircraft. That said, Kimmel should have at least expected submarines to be an issue and should have had a full patrol out. Like 9/11, the biggest failure on the command's part was a failure of imagination

[HMAS Sydney]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: HMAS Sydney

Well to be fair, unlike what the movie Pearl Harbor said, no one thought PH was in any danger even if war did break out. 

I agree that no one thought PH would be attacked by aircraft. That said, Kimmel should have at least expected submarines to be an issue and should have had a full patrol out. Like 9/11, the biggest failure on the command's part was a failure of imagination

Possibly, but we have to remember that high sight is a wonderful thing. He was being told by military intelligence, etc, that PH was in no danger, etc.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: HMAS Sydney

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: HMAS Sydney

Well to be fair, unlike what the movie Pearl Harbor said, no one thought PH was in any danger even if war did break out. 

I agree that no one thought PH would be attacked by aircraft. That said, Kimmel should have at least expected submarines to be an issue and should have had a full patrol out. Like 9/11, the biggest failure on the command's part was a failure of imagination

Possibly, but we have to remember that high sight is a wonderful thing. He was being told by military intelligence, etc, that PH was in no danger, etc.

No you are wrong here. The US received plenty of intelligence that PH was a target. The intel community ignored the information because they CHOSE to believe PH was safe or rather the Japanese did not have the capability to pull it off. Japan was a very closed society prior to WWII. The Japanese had almost complete intelligence on pre-war US dispositions. The US had very limited counterintelligence. Here is an excerpt from just one article

In the Grand Joint Army-Navy Exercises of 1932, Pearl Harbor was “attacked” in a training simulation by 152 planes a half-hour before dawn (on a Sunday). An attack which caught the “defenders” of Pearl Harbor completely by surprise. In 1938, Admiral Ernst King led a carrier-born air strike from the USS Saratoga against Pearl Harbor in another exercise. Again, the “attackers” were successful in achieving total surprise.

On November 11, 1940, 21 aged British planes destroyed the Italian fleet, including three battleships, at their home port in the harbor of Taranto in Southern Italy by using technically innovative shallow-draft torpedoes and further demonstrating the effectiveness of a surprise from the air.

In spite of all this, with war believed to be imminent, the most powerful and most crucial part of the American defense in the Pacific, the U.S. Pacific Fleet, usually berthed on the west coast of the United States, was moved to the Pearl Harbor naval base in Hawaii. The fleet arrived on April 2, 1940. It was scheduled to return to the United States mainland around May 9, but this plan was drastically changed because of increasing activity in Europe and Japan’s attempt at expansion in Southeast Asia. Conflict involving Southeast Asia was a distinct probability.

Warnings continued to come. On January 27, 1941, Dr. Ricardo Shreiber, the Peruvian envoy in Tokyo, told a secretary at the U.S. embassy that he had learned from intelligence sources of a war plan involving a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. This information was sent to the State Department and Naval Intelligence and to Admiral Kimmel in Hawaii.

On March 31, 1941, a Navy report predicted that if Japan made war on the U.S., they would strike Pearl Harbor without warning at dawn with aircraft from a maximum of six carriers.

On August 10, 1941, a top British agent, code-named “Tricycle,” told the FBI that a planned attack on Pearl Harbor would occur very soon. He also reported that a senior Japanese naval person had gone to Taranto to collect all secret data on the attack there.

Early that fall, Kilsoo Haan, an agent for the Sino-Korean People’s League, told Eric Severeid of CBS News that the underground in Korea and Japan had positive proof that the Japanese were going to attack Pearl Harbor before Christmas. This was later reported to U.S. Army and Navy Intelligence.

[HMAS Sydney]

Were the commanders at PH told this?  If not my point is correct.  

[String]

ORIGINAL: HMAS Sydney

Were the commanders at PH told this?  If not my point is correct.  

Warnings continued to come. On January 27, 1941, Dr. Ricardo Shreiber, the Peruvian envoy in Tokyo, told a secretary at the U.S. embassy that he had learned from intelligence sources of a war plan involving a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor. This information was sent to the State Department and Naval Intelligence and to Admiral Kimmel in Hawaii.

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: vettim89

I would think two or three days may have made a difference but not an hour. The Army had a lot of mobile AAA that was not set up. Those devices that were in place had no ready ammo.

I really fault Short more than Kimmel. Short concentrated his aircraft because of the perceived sabotage threat. He had two full infantry divisions available to him to guard the aircraft! Heaven forbid that the soldiers actually would have required to be soldiers (even on the weekend). A lot has been written about how Washington failed to warn PH. I don't know if it would have mattered because Short and to a lesser degree Kimmel were still in peace time mind sets worrying about trivial administrative details rather than getting their units on a war footing.

Why do you think that it was a failure from Washington, to not warn Pearl Harbour ??
It could been of course, but why not a Strategical Decission to not warn them ??
Roosenveldt in 41 did not mind getting drawn into the war...

It is surgested that United Kingdom had sevreal rapports pointing in direction of a Japanese Attack, and many of the Actions UK took in the Pacific and Asia during September, October and November 1941 do more then "surgest" that they were preparing for war.
See the BBC Documentery: WW2 Behind Closed Doors for more details, it is a great program.



^^

[witpqs]

You know guys, borner was respectful to start his own thread because he didn't want to hijack someone else's thread. Now his thread gets pulled into "They were all warned ahead of time it's a conspiracy!" territory. Give him a break.

I say Bismark was scuttled as it was sinking.

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: Japan

ORIGINAL: vettim89

I would think two or three days may have made a difference but not an hour. The Army had a lot of mobile AAA that was not set up. Those devices that were in place had no ready ammo.

I really fault Short more than Kimmel. Short concentrated his aircraft because of the perceived sabotage threat. He had two full infantry divisions available to him to guard the aircraft! Heaven forbid that the soldiers actually would have required to be soldiers (even on the weekend). A lot has been written about how Washington failed to warn PH. I don't know if it would have mattered because Short and to a lesser degree Kimmel were still in peace time mind sets worrying about trivial administrative details rather than getting their units on a war footing.

How can we know that it was a failure from Washington, to not warn Pearl Harbour ?
Roosenveldt in 41 did not mind getting drawn into the war...

It is in 2006 surgested that United Kingdom had sevreal rapports pointing in direction of a Japanese Attack, and many of the Actions UK took in the Pacific during September, October and November 1941 do more then "surgest" that they were preparing for an all out war with Japan.
See the BBC Documentery: WW2 Behind Closed Doors for more details, it is a great program, and based on newly found and declassefied documents from WW2.



^^

I know that there are conspiracy theories about the failure to warn the commanders at Pearl Harbor. Most of them have been debunked. I think Washington fully expected Japan to attack the PI and Malaya. The biggest factor governig the lack of preparatio on Oahu was an institutional dismissive attitude toward the Japanese military. The US largely beleived the Japanese were a second rate power and could be easily defeated.

[RevRick]

ORIGINAL: Japan

ORIGINAL: vettim89

I would think two or three days may have made a difference but not an hour. The Army had a lot of mobile AAA that was not set up. Those devices that were in place had no ready ammo.

I really fault Short more than Kimmel. Short concentrated his aircraft because of the perceived sabotage threat. He had two full infantry divisions available to him to guard the aircraft! Heaven forbid that the soldiers actually would have required to be soldiers (even on the weekend). A lot has been written about how Washington failed to warn PH. I don't know if it would have mattered because Short and to a lesser degree Kimmel were still in peace time mind sets worrying about trivial administrative details rather than getting their units on a war footing.

Why do you think that it was a failure from Washington, to not warn Pearl Harbour ??
It could been of course, but why not a Strategical Decission to not warn them ??
Roosenveldt in 41 did not mind getting drawn into the war...

It is surgested that United Kingdom had sevreal rapports pointing in direction of a Japanese Attack, and many of the Actions UK took in the Pacific and Asia during September, October and November 1941 do more then "surgest" that they were preparing for war.
See the BBC Documentery: WW2 Behind Closed Doors for more details, it is a great program.



^^

The name is Roosevelt.

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

You know guys, borner was respectful to start his own thread because he didn't want to hijack someone else's thread. Now his thread gets pulled into "They were all warned ahead of time it's a conspiracy!" territory. Give him a break.

I say Bismark was scuttled as it was sinking.

Well, you have the    The Gulf Of Tonkin Incident,  so why would it be radical to surest that Washington may have known of, or had indications about a Japanese Attack ?? Britain was preparing in Asia for it... so... some indication they must have had, or ?

Think of it this way,   if they had the knowledge,  do you think they would taken action ??  
In December 1941, I think Roosevelt wanted to get involved, and are only suggesting he might have had indications.
His relation to Churchill alone should given him enugth indications.


BBC WW2 Behind Closed Doors  surgests this, I must point out however, that I am not qualified to have an opinion about this, but do only simply speculate.

Remember that the Winner Writes History, so why would this be a unrealistic scenario.

[JWE]

Stop this conspiracy crap right now. Either respect the thread starter, or don't post. You should be aware of the consequences.

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: JWE

Stop this conspiracy crap right now. Either respect the thread starter, or don't post. You should be aware of the consequences.

I'm sorry sir, but I'm not sure what you are referring to.



This Thread is about "if they would been warned, and if they had known",

My replays are within the regulation of the forum, and are suggesting that it had not necessarily changed anything if they did know.



If you want to claim that I am not respecting the forum rules, then please point me to the rule you think I have not obayed.

Btw, are you Evan a moderator, should I interprete your statement as a formal threat/warning from the Forum Administration ??
As far as I know, you do not have the right to speak on their behalf ?

Also, about the "consequences" you are talking about sir, is that a new formal forum policy for not agreeing with you personally, or can you please point me to an "actual" rule, or "spirit of a rule" that you want to claim that I have not been obaying sir.


As far as I can see sir, I have not done anything wrong here.
If I am incorrect sir, then I ask you to please help me (and the other users) to understand what crime I am gilty of.
(Other then having my own opinion.)


.

[drw61]

I don't think an hour would have made a lot of difference for the Army Air Corps, most people were in a peace time "it will never happen here" or "another drill and on my Sunday!" frame of mind.   I would wager that if the alarm was sounded there would have been a lot of grumbling, total disbelief but not much action.  
One positive thing at least the fleet could have been at general quarters. 

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Japan

ORIGINAL: JWE

Stop this conspiracy crap right now. Either respect the thread starter, or don't post. You should be aware of the consequences.

I'm sorry sir, but I'm not sure what you are referring to.



This Thread is about "if they would been warned, and if they had known",

My replays are within the regulation of the forum, and are suggesting that it had not necessarily changed anything if they did know.



If you want to claim that I am not respecting the forum rules, then please point me to the rule you think I have not obayed.

Btw, are you Evan a moderator, should I interprete your statement as a formal threat/warning from the Forum Administration ??
As far as I know, you do not have the right to speak on their behalf ?

Also, about the "consequences" you are talking about sir, is that a new formal forum policy for not agreeing with you personally, or can you please point me to an "actual" rule, or "spirit of a rule" that you want to claim that I have not been obaying sir.


As far as I can see sir, I have not done anything wrong here.
If I am incorrect sir, then I ask you to please help me (and the other users) to understand what crime I am gilty of.
(Other then having my own opinion.)


.

Japan, if you aren't guity, then don't defend yourself so hard!
[:)]

I'm not sure I see anyone clearly across the line - though the line is probably being stepped on - so just be warned - the official moderators are watching - so let's make sure we stick to history - or the game.

Thanks,

joe