Best Laid Plans

[Mad Russian]

For us there is a base strategy for each of the 3 Axis Powers.

Germany: Knock out either England or Russia. Normally Russia. I've never seen both done in the same game before. We've spent years developing strategies that can make that happen. As has anybody else that's played this game more than once.

Italy: To project their power base wherever the Allies are weak in the  Med with the goal of controlling the Med completely. Malta, Gibraltar, Greece, Yugoslavia  Egypt or any combination of those. Italy has the largest number of overall strategic objectives of the three.

Italy is hard to play because, while she holds the cards to winning the game, she is also the weakest of the three Axis countries and has to plan very carefully for both offense and defense. In this regard Italy resembles playing England....not the Commonwealth but ENGLAND. Both can be very offensive but must keep one eye out for defense at the same time.

Japan: To either take out China or to advance across the Pacific. I've never seen both done in the same game before.

Having either Spain or Turkey or both to join the Axis is a major goal of both Germany and Italy as either of them joining the Axis will shift the balance of power in both Germany and Italy's primary areas of operation.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Against the Royal Navy the Italians need German help (in the form of aircraft, mostly) to fight effectively in the Med, and they usually also need German army units to make progress against the CW on land.

Needing German help is not the same as having the Germans take the Med for the Italians as has been put forth in some of these posts.

The reverse side of that coin is without Italian forces in the Med the Germans can do little to nothing there. The Italian forces are the dominant Axis forces in the area. Not the Germans.

The Royal Navy can't just ignore the Italian Navy. There is no guarantee for the RN that they can win a straight up fight with the Italians. I like to play CW gamers that think the Italians are Toothless Tigers.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

   I see that your definition of control is much different then mine, so let me explain:

The med is controlled when either you can project enough power into a seazone to make the enemy afraid to move into it, or you close the access points off.  The italians are incapabale of projecting enough power to prevent even the french from challenging them in the med.  The british can trade 2-1 in ships with the italians and still have enough left over for its needs..  As for closing the access points, can Italy really take Gibralter by itself from a competant british player?  The Suez canal? 

    What I have seen in all cases, the med is partly controlled when the Germans project land based planes into it, and totally controlled when they take out Spain/Gibralter, then the Suez.  The only real help the italians can provide is some transport capablity and shore bombardment on the coast. 

But the Italians controlling the Med?  Thats a laugh.

We absolutely have a different definition of controlling the Med.

If you fight both the French and RN at the same time you get what you ask for. Let's assume for argument's sake that the Italian player is competent too okay?

As the Italians I've crushed the RN in naval battle after naval battle. To the point where the RN decided it was too costly to keep coming in there.

Germany really needs to supply only one thing to Italy.

Not air.

Not land units.

RESOURCES............

Air and land units help, but resources put Italy on a par with the CW in the Med. That's all that's needed.

If you don't think so. We will be happy to show you how it works.

Good Hunting.

MR

[LiquidSky]

There is a big difference between competancy and capability.  The RN is much bigger then the Italians.  Even with convoy commitments, the carrier/BB's of the CW out match the Italians in the med.  How do the italians combat this?  One, they can bring in land based air.  They have a couple 5 air-air, and a lot of 4 air-ar fighters, of which only two have a range of 5 or 6.  They could also have 6 naval planes with a total of 15 air-sea factors. (and some misc. Tac that could double this number).  Not too shabby, except your hopes of protecting them rest on a fighter force flying into the 2 box.  Now the CW could have a a few 6 air-air fighters, giving the CW the ability to fight in the 3 box with 4 fighters.  The competant Italian fights in the 2 box.  Slight edge:  CW. 
 
I could go into a comparison of ships, but anyone who has played the game can see the stack size difference. Without even noticing the qualitative difference. 
 
In any games I have seen the Italians do well, the CW have essentially ignored them.  In any game where the CW decides Italy first (over Germany), the italians suffer, and suffer big.  Of course, dice luck is a factor in Naval combat, but strength can mitigate that (although we once packed up an American in Flames game because the small american fleet took out the combined German Italian fleet in about 6 rounds of suprise)
 
Now, if really want to control the med, what do you need?  Germans.  Starting with the fighters that can make the 3 box, so your fleet can fight in a better box.  And any naval air they can spare the missions for.  Of course, in our games we rarely see the Italian fleet even sortie out, because it guarentees either no combat, or an air battle against the CW fleet.  More likely, the CW fleet is also sitting in Gibralter, while their LBA is sitting at sea, with the onus on the Italians to sail out to do their transport missions.  BUt I digress...
 
Control of the med by the axis doesnt come from sea combat.  It comes from land combat.  Take Spain, then Gibralter (not a certainty for the germans, and practically impossible for the italians) and on the other side, threaten/take/ZOC the Suez canal.  Also done with German units, although with significant Italian help). 
 
Without the German help, you are just a minor nusiance to the CW waiting for either the American/CW to invade you or the germans to do so well in USSR, that they have to invade France early.

[LiquidSky]

   On the note of the Italian, as the CW you have to be aware of their big weaknesses...
 
First of all, their economy sucks.  Not only does it suck, but it is a drain on the German economy for them to get the sort of toys they will need to even compete in the med, let alone attempt to control it.  Until they are at war, they have limited build points.  Until France falls, the Germans will be reluctant to lend resources to the Italians as they themselves lack sufficient resources to fill their factories.   So even if you go to war early, you may not get anything to help you.
 
Second of all, they are fragile.  A sunk capital ship is gone for two years.  Is spending the build points a wise move in 1940?  Maybe.  In 1941?   It wont show up until 1943.  With the americans in the equation, control of the med in 1943 is only certain if Gibralter is axis.  The italians could have 8 or 9 capital ships built (assuming you advance build the Lepanto) or even 10 if you dont mind spending a large pile of German lend lease on the Italia.  Against that the CW can have 10 CV's (not counting CVL's) and 25 BB's, at worst, a 2-1 advantage over them.  Can you afford to lose even one naval battle with the italians? 
 
Thirdly it doesnt take a master strategist to figure out what the Italians are doing in the game.  There intentions are much hider to mask because the focus of their front is much smaller.  In order to fight in Africa, they must sail in two seazones; Italian Coast and East or West Med.  The CW can blockade you in the Italian coast (albiet with only malta as an effective airbase) or can fight you in the east med where they can have a there LBA.  Of course, you know what zone the fleet will be in by the presence of the slow BB's.
 
The only way the Italians can control the med on their own is to roll low.  Always roll a 1 or 2 while your opponents roll high, and you will control the med. 

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

There is a big difference between competancy and capability.  The RN is much bigger then the Italians.  Even with convoy commitments, the carrier/BB's of the CW out match the Italians in the med.  How do the italians combat this?  One, they can bring in land based air.  They have a couple 5 air-air, and a lot of 4 air-ar fighters, of which only two have a range of 5 or 6.  They could also have 6 naval planes with a total of 15 air-sea factors. (and some misc. Tac that could double this number).  Not too shabby, except your hopes of protecting them rest on a fighter force flying into the 2 box.  Now the CW could have a a few 6 air-air fighters, giving the CW the ability to fight in the 3 box with 4 fighters.  The competant Italian fights in the 2 box.  Slight edge:  CW. 

I could go into a comparison of ships, but anyone who has played the game can see the stack size difference. Without even noticing the qualitative difference. 

In any games I have seen the Italians do well, the CW have essentially ignored them.  In any game where the CW decides Italy first (over Germany), the italians suffer, and suffer big.  Of course, dice luck is a factor in Naval combat, but strength can mitigate that (although we once packed up an American in Flames game because the small american fleet took out the combined German Italian fleet in about 6 rounds of suprise)

Now, if really want to control the med, what do you need?  Germans.  Starting with the fighters that can make the 3 box, so your fleet can fight in a better box.  And any naval air they can spare the missions for.  Of course, in our games we rarely see the Italian fleet even sortie out, because it guarentees either no combat, or an air battle against the CW fleet.  More likely, the CW fleet is also sitting in Gibralter, while their LBA is sitting at sea, with the onus on the Italians to sail out to do their transport missions.  BUt I digress...

Control of the med by the axis doesnt come from sea combat.  It comes from land combat.  Take Spain, then Gibralter (not a certainty for the germans, and practically impossible for the italians) and on the other side, threaten/take/ZOC the Suez canal.  Also done with German units, although with significant Italian help). 

Without the German help, you are just a minor nusiance to the CW waiting for either the American/CW to invade you or the germans to do so well in USSR, that they have to invade France early.

I never said that Italy couldn't be countered. I said they can fight.

You want to bring the entire RN into the Med to fight as the Italians I would welcome that move. As the Axis player I would welcome that move. Britain isn't in a position normally to have all the ships she wants everywhere around the world.

Pile them all in one place of the Axis to get at and I think you'll have alot less of them in a turn or two than you started with. And if those good die rolls you were talking actually do show up you will leave with a whole lot less than you started with.

Good Hunting.

MR

[brian brian]

that's the point though ... the RN can absorb losses more easily than the Italians can. the RN doesn't even need the slow BBs late in the game, so they can go down gloriously taking out Italian overseas logistics while ducking all the SM 79s coming their way, and then the American dockyards patch them back up again.

Italian survival is all about one hex, a hex they are not even powerful enough to take on their own, and that is the bottom line....they are not masters of their own fate in the game.

That said, it is FUN to play an Italy making an attempt at Empire. But that will be a short-lived type of fun most of the time.

It is also a heck of a lot of fun to roll the panzers on towards Sverdlosk courtesy of a dominating Italian air umbrella - which can suddenly re-open Italian strategic options once that allows the Germans to cross the Caucasus, putting the Middle East back in play in the middle of the game.

[Mad Russian]

We'll see.

I don't think the strategy of WiF will have changed so much that the basic strategies in MWiF change all that much.

For every move there is a counter move in this game. Every strategy will work sometimes.


Good Hunting.

MR

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian


For every move there is a counter move in this game. Every strategy will work sometimes.



Good Hunting.

MR

When you finish laying down all that steel, you'll find Yugoslavia doesn't have any decent ports to sail it from.

Edit: This was in reference to MR saying: "I like to build the Italian navy out at the beginning of the game." or words to that effect.

[brian brian]

I like building Italian Navy too, sort of. I frequently lay down the Aquila with my first two Build Points on the very first turn; my opponents snigger. But when it sails into the Mozambique Channel to back up the Shokaku and the Zuikaku covering Army Group Hata's unloading, the Royal Navy laughs no more. (Recall my Best Laid Plan from my very first game of WiF....so far I've only been able to get the Italians to take one of the Major Ports in South Africa for an independent advance base while the Japanese duke it out for Capetown with the Yanks and Brits). A CV-based Italian Task Force operating in the Indian Ocean can be a valuable asset to help the Axis maintain communications with the Middle East for a few turns longer in the mid-game.

It is also fun to lay-down an AMPH as Italy and watch the dark-blue transports scurry around frantically.

But I never spend on new Italian surface ships, ever; they've got plenty. World in Flames:Final Edition is all about the airplanes.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

When you finish laying down all that steel, you'll find Yugoslavia doesn't have any decent ports to sail it from.

Edit: This was in reference to MR saying: "I like to build the Italian navy out at the beginning of the game." or words to that effect.

The last time I looked at the game Italy isn't forced to go into Yugoslavia. Besides the rest of the Med has no shortage of major ports. Such as Gibraltar, Malta, Alexandria.....[;)]

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I like building Italian Navy too, sort of. I frequently lay down the Aquila with my first two Build Points on the very first turn; my opponents snigger.
{/quote]

My ships aren't named but I build the Italian carrier as soon as I can. For Italy she can be very important.

But when it sails into the Mozambique Channel to back up the Shokaku and the Zuikaku covering Army Group Hata's unloading, the Royal Navy laughs no more. (Recall my Best Laid Plan from my very first game of WiF....so far I've only been able to get the Italians to take one of the Major Ports in South Africa for an independent advance base while the Japanese duke it out for Capetown with the Yanks and Brits). A CV-based Italian Task Force operating in the Indian Ocean can be a valuable asset to help the Axis maintain communications with the Middle East for a few turns longer in the mid-game.

There are those on these forums that don't believe Italy can influence the war that much. I'd like to see the look on their faces as the Italian Navy begins to influence more and more of the fighting as time goes on.

It is also fun to lay-down an AMPH as Italy and watch the dark-blue transports scurry around frantically.

But I never spend on new Italian surface ships, ever; they've got plenty. World in Flames:Final Edition is all about the airplanes.

I spend on what my main objectives are at the start of the war. If Italy is going to take and hold ground I build ground units. If we are going to contest the Royal Navy I build ships. In either case I build lots of air.

Good Hunting.

MR

[brian brian]

I think most Allies would be quite content to see the Axis spend scarce resources on Italian surface ships. I certainly would be.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I think most Allies would be quite content to see the Axis spend scarce resources on Italian surface ships. I certainly would be.

Well, things are rarely what they seem to be. I once had one of my toughest opponents tell me, "I'm glad Italy captured North Africa now I don't have to defend it any longer."

Four turns later he conceded that the war was over.

IMO, Italy has to build ships if she is going to contest the Royal Navy. But there are several ways of doing that. And of course which ships you build might be the key to the whole thing........

We'll see how things turn out when the game is released and AAR's/DAR's are posted up on the site.

Only then will we know for sure which strategists are the most flexible. Since any strategy will work sometimes, you have to be flexible enough in your own strategies to respond to the developing situations. You plan for the best and prepare for the worst. But no plan survives past the first shot or in our case the first die roll or computer generated engagement resolution.

What I find interesting is the number of gamers that hold Italy in such low esteem. I think there are some real surprises down the road in some of these upcoming games. I look forward to seeing what some of these strategists will come up with for answers to some of the classic problems of WiF. I'm sure I'll learn a lot of new ideas and applications.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

When you finish laying down all that steel, you'll find Yugoslavia doesn't have any decent ports to sail it from.

Edit: This was in reference to MR saying: "I like to build the Italian navy out at the beginning of the game." or words to that effect.

The last time I looked at the game Italy isn't forced to go into Yugoslavia. Besides the rest of the Med has no shortage of major ports. Such as Gibraltar, Malta, Alexandria.....[;)]

Good Hunting.

MR

I believe his point was that once Italy collapses, the Italians typically use Yugoslavia as their New Home Country.

[Mad Russian]

 [:D]   [:D]   [:D]

My point is that there is no guarantee that Italy will collapse. If she does some of the things that need doing there is an even chance that Italy doesn't get knocked out of the war. She is the most exposed of the 3 Axis countries and therefore the most vulnerable. If, as the Italian player, you just sit back and let the CW dictate how things will go you won't be in the game long. If, on the other hand, you do some things to improve your own situation then things can take another road.

I can't wait to see some of the AAR's/DAR's that will come in once the game is released.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

When you finish laying down all that steel, you'll find Yugoslavia doesn't have any decent ports to sail it from.

Edit: This was in reference to MR saying: "I like to build the Italian navy out at the beginning of the game." or words to that effect.

The last time I looked at the game Italy isn't forced to go into Yugoslavia. Besides the rest of the Med has no shortage of major ports. Such as Gibraltar, Malta, Alexandria.....[;)]

Good Hunting.

MR

I believe his point was that once Italy collapses, the Italians typically use Yugoslavia as their New Home Country.

Normally the Germans can liberate a major port in Italy to lend resources/bp to, as well as for basing the italian fleet. Quite valuable if Yugo isn't italian.

[composer99]

Italy's best assets for fighting in the Med are its naval air bombers. Its best assets overall are probably its submarines. And its bombers and fighters fighting in USSR are pure gold.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

But the Italians controlling the Med?  Thats a laugh.

Italians had control of the Med in one of our campaigns, with german help of course. Italy was able to seize Suez early while UK was trying to defend Gibraltar. Germany did collapse Vichy as soon as it was created and invaded Spain, in nov/dec. 1940 Germany took Gibraltar. The 2 entry points to the Mediterranea were closed.