Optional Rule Intelligence

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I have thought about this quite a bit and I just can't see any way to make this a playable option in MWIF.[:@]

The obstacle is the die rolls.

If the Intelligence rule is fully implemented, then:
1 - before every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want to modify the die roll.
2 - after every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want a reroll.

That would be insane to do, since there are hundreds of die rolls in a turn and potetntially there could be multiple major powers on each side capable of saying 'Yes' to one or both of those querries.

The effect would be to prompt everyone before each die roll and prompt them a second time after each die roll. Even playing solitaire, where there is no time delay for your opponent(s) to respond, would be crazy.

For instance, take the German attack on the USSR where the Germans have surprise and conduct 6 ground strikes against hexes that contain 2 or 3 units. That could require 20-30 die rolls, and even if we limit the decision makers to the USSR and Germany, we are talking about ~100 prompts just to get through the ground strike phase of one impulse.

Opinions?[&:] Comments?[&:]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I have thought about this quite a bit and I just can't see any way to make this a playable option in MWIF.[:@]

The obstacle is the die rolls.

If the Intelligence rule is fully implemented, then:
1 - before every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want to modify the die roll.
2 - after every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want a reroll.

That would be insane to do, since there are hundreds of die rolls in a turn and potetntially there could be multiple major powers on each side capable of saying 'Yes' to one or both of those querries.

The effect would be to prompt everyone before each die roll and prompt them a second time after each die roll. Even playing solitaire, where there is no time delay for your opponent(s) to respond, would be crazy.

For instance, take the German attack on the USSR where the Germans have surprise and conduct 6 ground strikes against hexes that contain 2 or 3 units. That could require 20-30 die rolls, and even if we limit the decision makers to the USSR and Germany, we are talking about ~100 prompts just to get through the ground strike phase of one impulse.

Opinions?[&:] Comments?[&:]

I see this this way :
For the ability to modify a die rol (+1 / 0 / -1) :
Add a menu item in the "Command" menu, that any player with 5 intell points can click, that say : I want to modify the next die roll.
After he have chosen this option, the next die roll is rolled, the result is shown to the player, and he can decide to add 1, add 0, or substract 1.

For the ability to re-roll a die :
Add a menu item in the "Command" menu, that any player with 15 intell points can click, that say : I want to re-roll the previous die.
After he have chosen this menu item, the die is re-rolled and the result is shown to everyone.

No additional form shown to any player, just the ability to go trigger this effect, either just after the die was rolled (for re-roll), or just before (for modification).

Alternatively, the second ability can also be activated by a button in the form that shows the die roll result. This form would have an OK button, and a Reroll button. When clicked, a form would ask which major power is spending 15 points for reroll, and once answered it substract those 15 points, and then rerolls.

[Tonqeen]

Make this option unavaileble in PBEM? Then it could work

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I have thought about this quite a bit and I just can't see any way to make this a playable option in MWIF.[:@]

The obstacle is the die rolls.

If the Intelligence rule is fully implemented, then:
1 - before every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want to modify the die roll.
2 - after every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want a reroll.

That would be insane to do, since there are hundreds of die rolls in a turn and potetntially there could be multiple major powers on each side capable of saying 'Yes' to one or both of those querries.

The effect would be to prompt everyone before each die roll and prompt them a second time after each die roll. Even playing solitaire, where there is no time delay for your opponent(s) to respond, would be crazy.

For instance, take the German attack on the USSR where the Germans have surprise and conduct 6 ground strikes against hexes that contain 2 or 3 units. That could require 20-30 die rolls, and even if we limit the decision makers to the USSR and Germany, we are talking about ~100 prompts just to get through the ground strike phase of one impulse.

Opinions?[&:] Comments?[&:]

I see this this way :
For the ability to modify a die rol (+1 / 0 / -1) :
Add a menu item in the "Command" menu, that any player with 5 intell points can click, that say : I want to modify the next die roll.
After he have chosen this option, the next die roll is rolled, the result is shown to the player, and he can decide to add 1, add 0, or substract 1.

For the ability to re-roll a die :
Add a menu item in the "Command" menu, that any player with 15 intell points can click, that say : I want to re-roll the previous die.
After he have chosen this menu item, the die is re-rolled and the result is shown to everyone.

No additional form shown to any player, just the ability to go trigger this effect, either just after the die was rolled (for re-roll), or just before (for modification).

Alternatively, the second ability can also be activated by a button in the form that shows the die roll result. This form would have an OK button, and a Reroll button. When clicked, a form would ask which major power is spending 15 points for reroll, and once answered it substract those 15 points, and then rerolls.

There are still a lot of die rolls. True, 15 Intelligence points won't be available very often, and then only to the US late in the game (most likely). Take the example of a large ground strike air mission for the US. Is the US suppose to be asked to sprinkle water on (i.e., bless) each die roll - before the next one occurs? One solution might be to restrict which die rolls could be changed - I suspect vast numbers of them could be eliminated simply because noone would ever want to spend 15 Intelligence points on changing them (e.g., a naval combat result).

But the modification before the die roll might be used by many more major powers (5 Intell points), and for more trivial reasons.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Tonqeen

Make this option unavaileble in PBEM? Then it could work

I have already decided to do that.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
- I suspect vast numbers of them could be eliminated simply because noone would ever want to spend 15 Intelligence points on changing them (e.g., a naval combat result).

But the modification before the die roll might be used by many more major powers (5 Intell points), and for more trivial reasons.

I disagree. Early on in the Pacific Campaign if the U.S. has relative or slightly better than parity he should go deke it out with the Japanese. Any reasonable attrition result is great. But a 1 - 10 surprise split is completely devastating. That would be (IMO) the numero Uno place for a re-roll, if one were to be had.

As to your original proposition, I know enough about programming to say that if the game is as far advanced as it is now, and nothing has been built in for the Intelligence Option so far - then trying to do so at this point will be equivalent to re-scheduling the release date.

Leave it for Version 2, please!

[brian brian]

quite a pickle.

maybe put it in for AI and Hot-Seat only. Should be simple for those two types of play. ?

and then only the re-roll seems tricky. I usually use Intell points to find out the weather .... priceless.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

quite a pickle.

maybe put it in for AI and Hot-Seat only. Should be simple for those two types of play. ?

and then only the re-roll seems tricky. I usually use Intell points to find out the weather .... priceless.

Even playing against the AIO this could become very tedious, very quickly.

I would see it as each die roll being shown to the human player twice: before the die is rolled, and after. There would be a button where the player could click, ok - meaning he doesn't want to spend intelligence points. This would only double the number of mouse clicks for die rolls - assuming that the player routinely monitors the die rolls anyway. When more than 1 human player is in the game, then each player needs to click OK for the game to proceed (assuming the player has intel points).

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I have thought about this quite a bit and I just can't see any way to make this a playable option in MWIF.[:@]

The obstacle is the die rolls.

If the Intelligence rule is fully implemented, then:
1 - before every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want to modify the die roll.
2 - after every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want a reroll.

That would be insane to do, since there are hundreds of die rolls in a turn and potetntially there could be multiple major powers on each side capable of saying 'Yes' to one or both of those querries.

The effect would be to prompt everyone before each die roll and prompt them a second time after each die roll. Even playing solitaire, where there is no time delay for your opponent(s) to respond, would be crazy.

For instance, take the German attack on the USSR where the Germans have surprise and conduct 6 ground strikes against hexes that contain 2 or 3 units. That could require 20-30 die rolls, and even if we limit the decision makers to the USSR and Germany, we are talking about ~100 prompts just to get through the ground strike phase of one impulse.

Opinions?[&:] Comments?[&:]

I suggest a change to the intelligence rules then for MWIF.

If you change the rule so that the game need to ask so few questions regarding intelligence as possible?

We played for a few games that you get to modify die rolls before you make any die rolls. We did not allow any rerolls. That worked so well for us that it has been the only intelligence we played with since we tried it. We also modified how you get int points but that is another story.

[Obsolete]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Tonqeen

Make this option unavaileble in PBEM? Then it could work

I have already decided to do that.

That`s probably best for the time being. You wouldn`t be the first to change rule implementation between a PBEM & Non-PBEM mode. So don`t sweat it Shannon.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I have thought about this quite a bit and I just can't see any way to make this a playable option in MWIF.[:@]

The obstacle is the die rolls.

If the Intelligence rule is fully implemented, then:
1 - before every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want to modify the die roll.
2 - after every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want a reroll.

That would be insane to do, since there are hundreds of die rolls in a turn and potetntially there could be multiple major powers on each side capable of saying 'Yes' to one or both of those querries.

The effect would be to prompt everyone before each die roll and prompt them a second time after each die roll. Even playing solitaire, where there is no time delay for your opponent(s) to respond, would be crazy.

For instance, take the German attack on the USSR where the Germans have surprise and conduct 6 ground strikes against hexes that contain 2 or 3 units. That could require 20-30 die rolls, and even if we limit the decision makers to the USSR and Germany, we are talking about ~100 prompts just to get through the ground strike phase of one impulse.

Opinions?[&:] Comments?[&:]

Rather than query the user, could you add an intelligence button or something similar so it only asks when the intelligence button is pressed? Prompting for intelligence bonuses at every step would be nearly as tedious as you coding it.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I have thought about this quite a bit and I just can't see any way to make this a playable option in MWIF.[:@]

The obstacle is the die rolls.

If the Intelligence rule is fully implemented, then:
1 - before every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want to modify the die roll.
2 - after every die roll, all the players which have sufficient Intelligence point available need to be querried as to whether they want a reroll.

That would be insane to do, since there are hundreds of die rolls in a turn and potetntially there could be multiple major powers on each side capable of saying 'Yes' to one or both of those querries.

The effect would be to prompt everyone before each die roll and prompt them a second time after each die roll. Even playing solitaire, where there is no time delay for your opponent(s) to respond, would be crazy.

For instance, take the German attack on the USSR where the Germans have surprise and conduct 6 ground strikes against hexes that contain 2 or 3 units. That could require 20-30 die rolls, and even if we limit the decision makers to the USSR and Germany, we are talking about ~100 prompts just to get through the ground strike phase of one impulse.

Opinions?[&:] Comments?[&:]

Rather than query the user, could you add an intelligence button or something similar so it only asks when the intelligence button is pressed? Prompting for intelligence bonuses at every step would be nearly as tedious as you coding it.

That's a possiblity.

Timing is the issue. For instance, there are a series of air missions that are performed one after another: strategic bombing, carpet bombing, and ground strikes. Those might pass by rather quickly if the player(s) on the other side click No for the first two - which puts you right into ground strikes and whomp, whomp, whomp, here they come! If the non-phasing player wants to use his intelligence points to affect one or more of the ground strike die rolls, he might need to "push the button" back before the strategic bombing phase. Do you see a way around this?

I am loathe to build an entire form devoted simply to tracking each player's preferences as to when Intel might be used (in the 152 phases/subphases/sub-subphases of the game).

[Zorachus99]

There may be a workaround:
 
At the begining of the opponents sub-phase, send a dialog to the non-phasing player asking if they would like to use intelligence at all, with a no or maybe. Suppress the prompt if the user doesn't have sufficient intel, or the optional isn't in use.  Also have a tick box to not ask this question again.  Unfortunately you would have to track the tick marks, and either have a form, or perhaps a single option [reset all intelligence options to default (ask)].  In any case there's no way to prevent it from asking completely, because the default behavior at ask is to prompt during the completetion of each possible air mission.  Even worse, you'll have to prompt the phasing and non-phasing player during the AA step.
 
The best you could do that I can think of is create a do you want to use intelligence during the opponents [insert sub-phase name here like ground strike] dialog.  This would make things go much quicker.  I save intelligence points for specific purposes such as weather, naval search, and end of turn in nearly all cases.
 
This is the kind of rule that will drive a computer bonkers.  You may consider deciding to push this and the re-reroll ability of intelligence to post release so that a well developed UI oulining all the types of phases you would prefer/prefer not to use intelligence in these two global cases can be created. 
 
Pushing the Intell optional until post-release would probably save you a ton of time.
 
Take what works and discard the rest

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
Rather than query the user, could you add an intelligence button or something similar so it only asks when the intelligence button is pressed? Prompting for intelligence bonuses at every step would be nearly as tedious as you coding it.

That's a possiblity.

Timing is the issue. For instance, there are a series of air missions that are performed one after another: strategic bombing, carpet bombing, and ground strikes. Those might pass by rather quickly if the player(s) on the other side click No for the first two - which puts you right into ground strikes and whomp, whomp, whomp, here they come! If the non-phasing player wants to use his intelligence points to affect one or more of the ground strike die rolls, he might need to "push the button" back before the strategic bombing phase. Do you see a way around this?

Well the player just have to war his fellow players that they wait before clicking the button.
If he misses the timing, this is also about that in the real game.
Anyway, you only communicate to the game and to your fellow players that you want a die roll to be modified before a die roll is cast, and die rolls are only cast when someone do something (perform an air mission, declare a land attack) so the player who want to spend intell just have to click the intell button (I had proposed a menu item, but a button is even more accessible) to communicate to the game that he wants to modify the die roll.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

There may be a workaround:

At the begining of the opponents sub-phase, send a dialog to the non-phasing player asking if they would like to use intelligence at all, with a no or maybe. Suppress the prompt if the user doesn't have sufficient intel, or the optional isn't in use.  Also have a tick box to not ask this question again.  Unfortunately you would have to track the tick marks, and either have a form, or perhaps a single option [reset all intelligence options to default (ask)].  In any case there's no way to prevent it from asking completely, because the default behavior at ask is to prompt during the completetion of each possible air mission.  Even worse, you'll have to prompt the phasing and non-phasing player during the AA step.

The best you could do that I can think of is create a do you want to use intelligence during the opponents [insert sub-phase name here like ground strike] dialog.  This would make things go much quicker.  I save intelligence points for specific purposes such as weather, naval search, and end of turn in nearly all cases.

This is the kind of rule that will drive a computer bonkers.  You may consider deciding to push this and the re-reroll ability of intelligence to post release so that a well developed UI oulining all the types of phases you would prefer/prefer not to use intelligence in these two global cases can be created. 

Pushing the Intell optional until post-release would probably save you a ton of time.

Take what works and discard the rest

Oh, I have already decided that this optional rule will be post initial release - and that it will not be part of PBEM.

What I am doing here is gathering ideas for solving a problem that so far had a completely blank sheet of paper as its proposed solution. Kicking possibilities around in the forum is a fairly standard modus operandi for me. I find that over time a reasonable solution can be found.

[csharpmao]

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

There may be a workaround:

At the begining of the opponents sub-phase, send a dialog to the non-phasing player asking if they would like to use intelligence at all, with a no or maybe. Suppress the prompt if the user doesn't have sufficient intel, or the optional isn't in use.  Also have a tick box to not ask this question again.  Unfortunately you would have to track the tick marks, and either have a form, or perhaps a single option [reset all intelligence options to default (ask)].  In any case there's no way to prevent it from asking completely, because the default behavior at ask is to prompt during the completetion of each possible air mission.  Even worse, you'll have to prompt the phasing and non-phasing player during the AA step.

The best you could do that I can think of is create a do you want to use intelligence during the opponents [insert sub-phase name here like ground strike] dialog.  This would make things go much quicker.  I save intelligence points for specific purposes such as weather, naval search, and end of turn in nearly all cases.

This is the kind of rule that will drive a computer bonkers.  You may consider deciding to push this and the re-reroll ability of intelligence to post release so that a well developed UI oulining all the types of phases you would prefer/prefer not to use intelligence in these two global cases can be created. 

Pushing the Intell optional until post-release would probably save you a ton of time.

Take what works and discard the rest

Yes, I was thinking of something like this, and just saw that you propose it. I think it's the best solution.

The only thing I can think to change, is maybe add some radio button (only one choice) instead of the tick box, to choose when prompting again for reroll :
- Next die roll
- Next sub phase
- Next impulse
- Next turn

[Edfactor]

Only one side should get any intelligence points, just have the larger side reduce their intelligence points by the smaller sides number. That way you cut the size of the problem way down. 
 
Another option is to have each nation assign their intelligence points to a certain type of opperation (Air,Naval,Land) and simply let the AI use the intelligence points for them.
 
Keeping the number of times this interupts the game to a minimum should be the goal.