AI for MWIF - Spain

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I can assure you that the Axis invading Spain from the Pyrenees won't conquer it in 1 turn without a stroke of good luck or very bad allied play.

I've managed to do so with Vichy France still in play. But it cost me dearly. I decided speed was important and spent one offensive chit to get it done fast. I caught the allies by suprise by spending the offensive in the Spanish mountains.

[peskpesk]

The question is: Against a Small, Medium or Large threat (by invasion/paradrop) how would you defend the esat cost of Spain? How many units would the required and where should they normally be placed?

Look on the image:



Ex for a medium threat my suggestion is that the standard hexes, in priority order are:

• Barcelona
• Cartagena
• Valencia
• Malaga
• Almeria
• Mountain hex (67,25)

and that 2 to maximum of 5 units are assigned to the region.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Still assuming that you refer to ancient WiF versions, I have to add that in WiF FE you have to control the capital PLUS any factory hex in the country to conquer it.
In your old time, conquering Madrid was enough, now you also need Bilbao (Mountain) and Barcelone (mountain + difficult access from the north).
I can assure you that the Axis invading Spain from the Pyrenees won't conquer it in 1 turn without a stroke of good luck or very bad allied play.

Yes, still referring to the ancient WiF version of the game.....I would point out to you that all three of the objectives you mention are in the top half of Spain closest to the German invasion points. The battle may not be for Madrid any more, but from an Axis point of view, Bilboa is easily accessible to a large scale attack, Barcelona is accessible from land, sea and air, while Madrid is still deep inside the country.

Certainly things have changed. To me, it looks like those changes have made it harder for the Allies to take Spain, not the Axis. All the objectives are in the northern half the country. What was once a tough fight to get to Madrid before the Axis now doesn't stop there. You now have to advance much further. Bilboa is easily accessed from land and sea, but Barcelona will be tough for the Allies to get before German intervention.

ORIGINAL: christo

Just a query..
In peoples experience, how many games have the allies attacked a neutral Spain? There is no way that they could do it early in the game and when they are on the offensive it does not make much sense to make a new enemy, give Adolf factories, several resources and fantastic defensive terrain. Granted this does need to factored in as a possible for the AIO but 99.9% of the time the aggressor is the axis.

I've seen Spain attacked 3 times by the Allies. They only got it once.

Does attacking Spain make sense? Sometimes it does. Sometimes doing anything makes sense. The question is how often are the risks worth the returns. In our group we have a Patton. His answer is to attack when you have a good opportunity because it's a good opportunity and they shouldn't be wasted, to attack when you have a mediocre opportunity because you have at least an even chance of success, to attack when you have a poor opportunity because the enemy won't be expecting it and if the attack succeeds you can often blow his entire front wide open.

In our group you never take ANYTHING for granted.

If you get Spain, you are definitely going to spread the German defenders even more thinly across the continent. That makes D-Day that much easier and you have troops that can then either move up to attack Southern France or be moved from Spain to invade South France instead of from Italy...if you have Allied troops in Italy....

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

The question is: Against a Small, Medium or Large threat (by invasion/paradrop) how would you defend the esat cost of Spain? How many units would the required and where should they normally be placed?



Ex for a medium threat my suggestion is that the standard hexes, in priority order are:

• Barcelona
• Cartagena
• Valencia
• Malaga
• Almeria
• Mountain hex (67,25)

and that 2 to maximum of 5 units are assigned to the region.

To me a better question is how do you know the threat level?

The number 1 thing in WiF is intelligence.

With that in mind, how do you know what my intentions are? I can bring units from half a dozen hexes away to concentrate them for an attack, an airborne drop can literally appear out of thin air (pun intended) while a sea invasion will come from zones away.

If I do it right that will all happen at once. Before you can respond.

I agree if you have an idea what is coming you can brace for it. It's been my experience that the best gamers never let you see what is coming before you get hit. Not sure about the amount of information available in MWiF but I would think that would still hold true.

If I activate Vichy as German, move infantry units to the border and then place an armored corps near Bilbao, a paratroop unit with supporting German air moves into Toulouse, I also move two German infantry units to the main Italian Fleet based where they can reach the eastern shore of Spain, what do you think the threat level is and how do you respond to that?

In the old days I might let you "catch" me moving them into those areas and I might not. We had a house rule that you couldn't look under a stack. That you could only see what was on the top of the stack. So, some FOW, but not a lot.

The activation of Vichy as German, the move to the border with Spain, German infantry units based with the Italian navy would tell you what? What would you consider Spain's threat level as the Allies? Would you prepare for an attack on Spain? How soon would it be coming and if so, from where?


Good Hunting.

MR

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

The question is: Against a Small, Medium or Large threat (by invasion/paradrop) how would you defend the esat cost of Spain? How many units would the required and where should they normally be placed?



Ex for a medium threat my suggestion is that the standard hexes, in priority order are:

• Barcelona
• Cartagena
• Valencia
• Malaga
• Almeria
• Mountain hex (67,25)

and that 2 to maximum of 5 units are assigned to the region.

To me a better question is how do you know the threat level?

The number 1 thing in WiF is intelligence.

With that in mind, how do you know what my intentions are? I can bring units from half a dozen hexes away to concentrate them for an attack, an airborne drop can literally appear out of thin air (pun intended) while a sea invasion will come from zones away.

If I do it right that will all happen at once. Before you can respond.

I agree if you have an idea what is coming you can brace for it. It's been my experience that the best gamers never let you see what is coming before you get hit. Not sure about the amount of information available in MWiF but I would think that would still hold true.

If I activate Vichy as German, move infantry units to the border and then place an armored corps near Bilbao, a paratroop unit with supporting German air moves into Toulouse, I also move two German infantry units to the main Italian Fleet based where they can reach the eastern shore of Spain, what do you think the threat level is and how do you respond to that?

In the old days I might let you "catch" me moving them into those areas and I might not. We had a house rule that you couldn't look under a stack. That you could only see what was on the top of the stack. So, some FOW, but not a lot.

The activation of Vichy as German, the move to the border with Spain, German infantry units based with the Italian navy would tell you what? What would you consider Spain's threat level as the Allies? Would you prepare for an attack on Spain? How soon would it be coming and if so, from where?


Good Hunting.

MR

The task that Peter is working on is where to setup the Spanish units. So, the point in the sequence of play where this occurs is during the DOW phase for the Axis. A lot of the things that you mention will have to have been done in an earlier impulse. Since the rest of the Allies can not help the Spanish durnig the first impulse, their units are ignored.

We have already worked out determining which hexes can be attacked via paradrop and invasion (the scripts for those are done). As part of those calculations, the maximum strength of each attack can be provided by the computer to the "setup script". These form the basis of determining threat levels.

[LiquidSky]

There is also the caveat that if you defend everywhere, you defend nowhere.  Perhaps it is better to set up for a delaying action, so you can get your support minors roll with the british, then bug out.  As well, a good defense against an invasion may be the CW taking the supply through the seazone away.  Realistically, Spain will fall to the Axis, so its defense will probably be only one of delay.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

There is also the caveat that if you defend everywhere, you defend nowhere.  Perhaps it is better to set up for a delaying action, so you can get your support minors roll with the british, then bug out.  As well, a good defense against an invasion may be the CW taking the supply through the seazone away.  Realistically, Spain will fall to the Axis, so its defense will probably be only one of delay.

I disagree. The purpose is not only to delay, but also to require the Axis to commit specialized units to the conquest of Spain. The list of unit types is long, and fairly obvious. If the Spanish defenders force the Axis to put in a lot of units over a long period of time, then the Allied players beam happiness.

A poor defense means the Axis might suffer few or no losses and be able to use their best units in combat elsewhere.

[christo]

Surely the most important question is not "where are the opposition comming from?" but rather "what are they trying to achieve?"
I realise that this falls under a different topic than Spain setup and has already been alluded to in the "priority" of the initial post. Conquering Spain is of secondary importance. Getting supply through one of the two northern rail lines to allow an attack on Gibraltar is what it is all about.
I would happily have the vast majority of Spain troops defending the north with only a screening force to prevent the movement of any troops that invade the east coast. Supply through the eastern med for the invading forces/ disembarked will be contested by the royal navy.

It will be interesting to see how the hex value for the AIO will be determined.

Christo

[praem]

The rail-line would become open, if Spain must surrender. If France has fallen, then you need to defend the northern passes. In 40 I cant see spain having more than 5 units for the coast, if the threat via the mountains is viable (and an attack via Vichy is not likely) - so where to plase them?
1 - Cartagena - road to Madrid and major port in a clear hex.
2 - Barcelona - factory and port
3 - Almeria
4 - Malaga
5 - Valencia
 
The reason Almeria and Malaga are higher priority than Valencia is the aproach to Gibraltar

[peskpesk]

Example of a 1940 East coast defence of Spain could look like. (Situation could be a Invasion attempt from very brave (fool) Italian. The AIO must be prepared for everything.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Example of a 1940 East coast defence of Spain could look like. (Situation could be a Invasion attempt from very brave (fool) Italian. The AIO must be prepared for everything.

I would place the fighter in a forrest hex in this setup. Most likely in one of the 2 forrest hexes between Madrid and Barcelona. I think I would place a stronger unit in Málaga. I would feel more comfortable with at least a 3 strength unit in that hex. If Málaga is lost the road towards Gibraltar is open and it becomes easy to disrupt the railroad from Gibraltar into central Span. I would place one of the static garrisons in Barcelona. With a mobile unit in Madrid it can be used as reserve after the suprise impulse.

[peskpesk]

The question is: Against a Large threat (by land/paradrop) how would you defend the north border of Spain? How many units would the required and where should they normally be placed?

Remember that Vichy French can be collapsed…

Look on the image:



Ex my suggestion is that the standard hexes, in priority order are:

• Bilbao
• Mountain Hex (63,23)
• Mountain Hex (64,25)
• Mountain Hex (64,26)
• Barcelona
• Mountain Hex (65,27)
• Mountain Hex (65,26)
• Mountain Hex (65,28)
• Mountain Hex (64,24)

and that 7 to maximum of 10 units are assigned to the region.

[peskpesk]

Example of the pervious post is

[peskpesk]

Here is an example of how a Large threat (by land/paradrop) against the north border of Spain and a Small threat (by invasion) to the east cost of Spain could be handled by the AIO.

[christo]

Not bad but I would have it a bit different.
The Western aspect of the Pyrenees border looks nicely defended. The east though is too weak. They are both equally important.
The 2-5 cav is worth 4 in the mountains and against a determined assault it will be slaughtered. It would be better on the east coast where its superior mobility can be used to isolate attackers. This then leaves only a single 5 factor unit (doubled to 10 points) the defend the whole rail line. Once it is conquered then the other Spanish forces will be bypassed.
The two units in the middle of the line are too strong.
Any attack through the middle will not achieve a great deal. Yes any attackers will get some ground and ultimately allow more axis units to join the assault on the hero cities, but it will not in of itself win the battle. I would be tempted to move the second unit (? 4-3) to Barcelona.
I agree with a previous poster that the main purpose has to be to delay the advance on Gibraltar.
To expect anything else is unrealistic.

Christo

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Here is an example of how a Large threat (by land/paradrop) against the north border of Spain and a Small threat (by invasion) to the east cost of Spain could be handled by the AIO.

If there is a paradrop threat on Spain, I would rather put the HQ on Saragossa rather than Madrid. There are few chances that the Axis paratroopers can reach Madrid, and if they did, they would be isolated until the army join with them from the front, which can be from 1 to 3 turns since the paradrop, so they have large chances of being destroyed.

[composer99]

The main axis of advance in an Axis assault on Spain is usually from France; the limited Axis sealift available in 1940-1941 means they are unlikely to press inland from the coast. The Axis can present threats of invasion/paradrop behind the Pyrenees that could allow them to bypass the defence lines there which the Spanish must guard against.
 
Nevertheless, if the CW has the land and air units to spare there are about four excellent defensive lines from the Pyrenees on to delay the Axis advance on Gibraltar.

[oscar72se]

Yes, it is possible for the Axis to paradrop in Saragossa 40-41. Getting supplies there is another story though... What about invasions in Valencia? If one worries about this and there isn't a paradrop threat towards Madrid the HQ could be put in Barcelona (since it is the most easily defended city in Spain), the 5-3 where the CAV is and the CAV in Valencia.

I like this setup as a defence against Axis invasions, but if there is a risk of invasion in and around Valencia this city needs to be defended.

[praem]

I'd rather loose Valencia than Malaga if there is chance of the invasion has a stratefic aim (lots of forces ready to exploit the bridgehead) - Valencia doesnt realy lead anywhere - its in the mountains and far from Madrid and furhter still from Gibraltar - If the threat is minor (divs and maybe 1 corp),  Valencia is not close enough to the Pyranees to make any significant change in the defensive stance/effect on suply.
 
With the threat described as minor, I'd only try and hold Cartagena and Barcelona on the coast. I agree with moving the HQ closer to the border - Saragossa seems good, but I migth consitter placing it as part of the line instead (near the railline)

[IKerensky_alt]

Hum, I would say thoses plan need to take into account 4 things :
 
 1- Who is the Spain Major Power Controller (CW probably ?)
 2- What CW units are avaliable ( in France holding around Bordeaux, in England, is there some quick sealift avaliable )
 3- What is the situation in the Med ( Balanced, Up Axis, Up Allies ).
 4- Is surprised ZoC in effect or not (major difference on this one ).
 
63,23 and 65,27 are the 2 keys hexagones if the Axis cant assure supply by the sea. 64,26 is important too. The trouble is not letting the Germans enter. The trouble is not letting them do it easily. And ZoCing the supply lines is one of the more effective way to have them use far more unit on non-combat duty or attack on high defence area than otherwise.
 
There is a lot of other mountain pairs of Hex in Spain that can achieve this supply cutting ZoC trick...
 
If the Axis is able to supply his advance from the Med then the defense of the Eastern Ports is vital.
 
If there is some CW unit in France or ready to disembark ( a WP or mountain unit in Barcelona will buy quite a lot of time for Gibraltar I think ) then you can concentrate more of the spanish unit in speedbumping in the mountain city of the north. The German cant supply an attack on Gibraltar without Barcelona or Guernica Area cleared. Guernica can be covered but that take 3 corps, Barcelona need to be taken and 64,25 64,26 and 65,27 covered to avoid any infiltration.
 
The main trouble of the Spanish is the lack of White Print unit for mountain defense...