Another bug in the wall

[Cunctator]

If you attack a russian army (choosing probe) the defender (defense) gets + 1 morale also if there is not present any russian leader.
In a game I'm playing I attacked 2 russian corps with no leaders (probe vs. defense).
Result: the defender was awarded by a +1 morale modifier.
It is clearly a bug as it is stated by the rules that +1 only applies if the defending troops are "commanded by a russian leader".
Please put a remedy.
C.

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: Cunctator

If you attack a russian army (choosing probe) the defender (defense) gets + 1 morale also if there is not present any russian leader.
In a game I'm playing I attacked 2 russian corps with no leaders (probe vs. defense).
Result: the defender was awarded by a +1 morale modifier.
It is clearly a bug as it is stated by the rules that +1 only applies if the defending troops are "commanded by a russian leader".
Please put a remedy.
C.

Sorry ConcTator but no bug.

EIA-Rule 12.3.7.1
Every corps have static values for CORPS LEADERS, Tactical-Max rating of 1. Rest is shown on your corps.

Although its a optional rule, many of those are implemented at default,
12.1.2 Ship building location
12.3.3 Cav superiority and withdraw.
12.3.5 Artillery corps.
12.3.7.1 Corps Leaders
12.3.8 Detach/Absorb minor free state factors.

So the bonus apply when the commander is Russian.
I dont recall EIA saying it had to be a Leader-counter.


Regards
Bresh

[Cunctator]

I'm sorry but I do not agree with you.
 
As per 13.8.5 (game manual):
 
Leaders Who Are Commanders
The leader in charge of a force is called the “commander. “ If no leader is present, the best corps intrinsic ratings (the intrinsic ratings reflect the abilities of the corps commanders) of the corps present is used. Fleets have no intrinsic ratings.
 
As you can see when it is used the word "leader" it is referred ONLY to a leader-counter (using your words).
The expression "if no leader is present" can only be adverted to a leader-counter.
You use "corps leaders" but there is not a single reference to this definition in the entire game manual.
 
Coming to the original Eia rule book that you mentioned, please read the following:
 
 [ 10.6 ] LEADERS AND COMMANDERS: The leaders in the game represent historical personalities who held major commands during the Napoleonic Wars. All leaders, except NELSON, must always be stacked with a corps of that major power or controlled minor power when on the map.....
 
As you can see there's a clear definition of what is considered a "leader". 
The meaning of the word, as it is intended in the rule book, is clear: leader means the so called leader-counter (Nappy, Charles and so on) and nothing else.
 
You can find the same expression in many other parts of the rule book and always referred to a leader-counter.
For example:
 
10.6.2 LEADER MOVEMENT: 10.6.3 LEADER CAPTURE: 10.6.4 * RETURNING LEADERS: 10.6.5 THE BERNADOTTE LEADER .... etc. etc.
 
That's my opinion of course.
 
Greetings
 
C.
 
 

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: Cunctator

I'm sorry but I do not agree with you.

As per 13.8.5 (game manual):

Leaders Who Are Commanders
The leader in charge of a force is called the “commander. “ If no leader is present, the best corps intrinsic ratings (the intrinsic ratings reflect the abilities of the corps commanders) of the corps present is used. Fleets have no intrinsic ratings.

As you can see when it is used the word "leader" it is referred ONLY to a leader-counter (using your words).
The expression "if no leader is present" can only be adverted to a leader-counter.
You use "corps leaders" but there is not a single reference to this definition in the entire game manual.

Coming to the original Eia rule book that you mentioned, please read the following:

 [ 10.6 ] LEADERS AND COMMANDERS: The leaders in the game represent historical personalities who held major commands during the Napoleonic Wars. All leaders, except NELSON, must always be stacked with a corps of that major power or controlled minor power when on the map.....

As you can see there's a clear definition of what is considered a "leader". 
The meaning of the word, as it is intended in the rule book, is clear: leader means the so called leader-counter (Nappy, Charles and so on) and nothing else.

You can find the same expression in many other parts of the rule book and always referred to a leader-counter.
For example:

10.6.2 LEADER MOVEMENT: 10.6.3 LEADER CAPTURE: 10.6.4 * RETURNING LEADERS: 10.6.5 THE BERNADOTTE LEADER .... etc. etc.
 
That's my opinion of course.

Greetings

C.

Well i guess we disagree.
I know corps-leaders are also refered as corps commanders, elsewhere.
Section title for 12.3.7.1 not corps commanders but corps-leaders.-

EIA-Section
12.3.7 Army leader options
12.3.7.1 CORPS LEADERS:
Treat these best corps ratings the same as if the force where commanded by a leader with those stratetig and tactical ratings and tactical maximum rating of "1".
(clearly states them as leaders).
So, sorry I can not read it your way.

Regards
Bresh

[MarshallEllis]

For the record, we are using the TMR of 1 for all corps leaders (When there is no leader counter).

[Dancing Bear]

I thougth some nations corps leaders were "2"'s (for France, Gb and maybe Russia?)

[bresh]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis
For the record, we are using the TMR of 1 for all corps leaders (When there is no leader counter).

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear
I thougth some nations corps leaders were "2"'s (for France, Gb and maybe Russia?)

Sweden also differ.
Anyway :
Leaders have 3 values
Stratetic rating (Corps-leaders has depending on nation 1-2 in these)
Tactical rating (Corps-leaders has depending on nation 1-2 in these)
Tactical maximum rating (TMR). (Corps leaders always have "1" in this).

Regards
Bresh

[Thresh]

TMR is the tactical maximum, which is how many corps they can command before suffering a penalty.

Therefore, a french Corps with no leader that is attacked is commanded by a 2-2-1 leader.

A Stack of three french Corps without a leader counter is 2-0-1 for the combat.

Todd
[/align]

[Jimmer]

In the original boardgame rules (source = http://eia.xnetz.com):

The term "commander" is used for both "leaders who are commanders" (i.e. the specific leader counter which is in charge of the full army) AND for corps commanders of individual corps.

The term "leader" is only used of the specific counters and of the historical person they represent. The one and only exception to this is 12.3.7.1, where a single corps commander (i.e. the intrinsic ratings of the corps) is treated "as if" the army was commanded by a leader of those ratings. They key words are "as if", clearly showing that this is not the general state of things. This word pair ("corps leader") is specifically defining the corps commander as a "leader" in the special circumstances of a battle with no leader counters.

Also, under the "'leader' and 'commander' are synonymous" concept, rules 10.6.1.1.1 and 10.6.1.1.3 are nonsensical, since every corps has a leader.

10.6.1.1 CHOOSING OR DETERMINING A COMMANDER: If there is only one leader present on a side at a combat, that leader automatically commands. Otherwise, the commander is determined as follows:
10.6.1.1.1 Commanders For Allied Armies: If several leaders are present on the same side at a combat then the leader commanding the whole army must be a leader of the major power with the greatest number of corps present. If there are equal greatest numbers, the major power providing the leader may be chosen by the controlling players by mutual agreement from among those major powers or by competitive unmodified die rolls.
10.6.1.1.2 Commanders Among Other Leaders: If there are several leaders from the one major power, the leader with the highest seniority rating is chosen. "A" is a senior rating to "B" is a senior rating to "C" is a senior rating to "D" If there is more than one leader of the same highest seniority rating then the controlling player may choose which leader to use.
10.6.1.1.3 Reinforcing Leaders Taking Command: If a reinforcing leader arrives during a combat, it takes command only if from the same major power as the present commander and has a higher seniority rating or if there is currently no leader.

[bresh]

The discussion is based about if Corps-leaders get the "nation-bonus" to certain chits.
As i read it, the army where no leader is present, the army is treated, as a leader is present of the corps who gets command,
with the Corps-static S(1-2,T(1-2,Tmr=1).
 
Regards
Bresh