Patton vs MacArthur

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Jim D Burns
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: Termite2
I agree with those that say the Soviet Union could have defeated Germany by itself without a western military presence and they were mainly responsible for the German defeat.  In the absence of Alled Lend lease; it would have been a riskier proposition;

I'm not sure how you can say this. Without massive lend lease rubber and sulphur imports, Russia could not make tires or rubber sealing gaskets in any significant quantities. Just these two items alone would have almost shut down Russia's wartime production of any kind of vehicles from planes to tanks and jeeps.

Sulphur was needed for use in the vulcanizing process for the rubber, without which, rubber alone would be useless. There is no way Russia could have ever achieved the massive production numbers it did for the things it did produce without allied lend lease.

Jim


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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Anthropoid »

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Heres a hypothectial...If the Allies attacked the Soviets, in 1945, having that Germany surrendured, would the German people take heart and join the Allies?

Here is my entirely uneducated, ignorant, psychopathic, insultingly dumb, brontosaurianly heavy, waddling, undead purportedness on this question <see Eisenhower had it right: if you just self-efface enough, you don't feed the trolls . .>:

The Soviets were a bad--and very large--arse force to contend with. But they also did not have the technological prowess of the West, and moreover, they were (I'm guessing) pretty much pumped up with nationalistic zeal at that point in 1945. The implication of that last point being: given a bit of provocation, they may well have been likely to go at things full force and get themselves deeply involved in a war they ultimately couldn't win, despite their actual historical and highly rational passivity in view of atomic cat being out of the bag.

I would speculate (wildly I might add) that had there been a shooting war between East and West at that point (instead of the ensuing Cold War and literally decades of proxy conflict), at first things might not have gone well for the allies.

But, that would not matter for one simple reason: the worse it got for the allies, the more likely that Truman would have pulled out the stops and let loose the dogs of atomic warfare on major Soviet population centers. Imagine if Moscow, Vladivostock, Petrograd(?), and perhaps a couple other major population/industrial centers had met the same fate as Nagasaki and Hirsohima . . . Unless of course Soviet air cover was so strong that it would not have been possible? Maybe I'm too far out on a limb here? Jets were just around the corner for U.S. but the Soviets were still quite a ways off, no?
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Bearcat2 »

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: Termite2
I agree with those that say the Soviet Union could have defeated Germany by itself without a western military presence and they were mainly responsible for the German defeat.  In the absence of Alled Lend lease; it would have been a riskier proposition;

I'm not sure how you can say this. Without massive lend lease rubber and sulphur imports, Russia could not make tires or rubber sealing gaskets in any significant quantities. Just these two items alone would have almost shut down Russia's wartime production of any kind of vehicles from planes to tanks and jeeps.

Sulphur was needed for use in the vulcanizing process for the rubber, without which, rubber alone would be useless. There is no way Russia could have ever achieved the massive production numbers it did for the things it did produce without allied lend lease.

Jim



Because the Russians would have come up with alternatives; even if it meant using iron wheels and giving a million russian troops sore kidneys; as for gaskets, more oil and paper gaskets would work. We did supply this stuff, so it wasn't necessary for the Soviets to come up with alternatives; that doesn't mean that they couldn't or that alternatives weren't already available, only that the alternatives were more costly and not as efficient.
I forgot to add: never underestimate the Russian ability to steal the technology they needed from the West; in order to get around material deficiencies.
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by crsutton »

Patton was a&nbsp;corp and army&nbsp;commander whereas MacArthur was a theater commander. (a very big theater)&nbsp;There is a hell of a difference between the two.&nbsp;For all their faults both were good a what they did. However, I don't think many would have considered Patton to be the kind of man to command a theater.
&nbsp;
For that reason there is not much of a comparison. It is like comparing the mayor of Nashville to the govenor of California. Both may be good at their jobs&nbsp;but that is about as far as it can go.
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: Termite2
I agree with those that say the Soviet Union could have defeated Germany by itself without a western military presence and they were mainly responsible for the German defeat.  In the absence of Alled Lend lease; it would have been a riskier proposition;

I'm not sure how you can say this. Without massive lend lease rubber and sulphur imports, Russia could not make tires or rubber sealing gaskets in any significant quantities. Just these two items alone would have almost shut down Russia's wartime production of any kind of vehicles from planes to tanks and jeeps.

Sulphur was needed for use in the vulcanizing process for the rubber, without which, rubber alone would be useless. There is no way Russia could have ever achieved the massive production numbers it did for the things it did produce without allied lend lease.

Jim

IIRC the saying was that "Russian tanks and soldiers did the fighting in the Eastern front but they, and what is more important, supply was exclusively driven in USA trucks"...

BTW, I can't recall any Russian truck from WWII... all of their 1943/1944/1945 success was heavily depending of "Lend and Lease" deliveries from USA - especially trucks and jeeps... the Russians simply produced tanks and not other stuff needed for modern army to advance (i.e. how would deep armour penetrations be possible without mobile supply)!


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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by frank1970 »

I don´t know if I quote it right, but in the book "world in flames", some American officer tells a Soviet: "American jeep, American boots, American uniform..." The Soviet simply adds: "russian body".
The American didn´t really know what to answer.
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Historiker »

BTW, I can't recall any Russian truck from WWII... all of their 1943/1944/1945 success was heavily depending of "Lend and Lease" deliveries from USA - especially trucks and jeeps... the Russians simply produced tanks and not other stuff needed for modern army to advance (i.e. how would deep armour penetrations be possible without mobile supply)!
Many of the Ktjushas were on Zis Trucks.
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

IIRC possibly several hundreads of thousadns of US vehicles were delivered to Russia via "Land and Lease" (mostly trucks). This is something Stalin (and other Soviet politicians) never fully thanked and addmited how much it helped defeating the Germany...


Here is one nice site with great drawings of amlost all Russian war equipement (and including USA "Land and Lease" vehicles):

http://www.o5m6.de/


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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Japan »

Many claims here, but little "in deaph" knowlage..
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Apollo11

IIRC possibly several hundreads of thousadns of US vehicles were delivered to Russia via "Land and Lease" (mostly trucks). This is something Stalin (and other Soviet politicians) never fully thanked and addmited how much it helped defeating the Germany...


Here is one nice site with great drawings of amlost all Russian war equipement (and including USA "Land and Lease" vehicles):

http://www.o5m6.de/

I remembered correctly... the site I reccomended above had the following table... interesting read...


US "Leand and Lease" = 350000+ of trucks for the Russia! [X(]


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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Japan »

Point is the same, by late 43 they had recived all they needed for Logistical Support and Mil Ops.
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: Termite2
Because the Russians would have come up with alternatives; even if it meant using iron wheels and giving a million russian troops sore kidneys; as for gaskets, more oil and paper gaskets would work. We did supply this stuff, so it wasn't necessary for the Soviets to come up with alternatives; that doesn't mean that they couldn't or that alternatives weren't already available, only that the alternatives were more costly and not as efficient.
I forgot to add: never underestimate the Russian ability to steal the technology they needed from the West; in order to get around material deficiencies.

Synthetic rubbers were decades away, there was no other technology to come up with to replace gaskets, heat resistant rubber hoses , tires, etc. Without rubber, it would have been impossible to field a modern military capable of offensive operations against the Germans.

While the Russians would have probably been able to field large defensive horse drawn and foot armies in such a circumstance, mobile formations and anything requiring any kind of a vehicle would have been impossible for them to produce.

The only neutral trade route into Russia after the war had started would have been through Persia. And there was no other place to get rubber anymore except via the western allies. Britain controlled 52% of the worlds production, DEI's controlled 33%, France 6%, and the US less than 1%, so it was lend lease or nothing as far as Russia was concerned.

As for Sulphur, the US controlled 82% of the worlds production, Japan 6%, and the DEI, China, Turkey and Latin America each less than 1%. No other country controlled an amount of the production at a level large enough to rate higher than -- on the chart.

Jim
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Japan »

@Ok Jim D Burns, here is the point, if you read the souses i sent you, you will see what Soviet wanted and to large degree used the trucks for in 1943, you will get surprised.

Here is the point in my meaning, Soviet had received so much already by 43, that from there on they would be good, the Trucks they got from late 43+ did to a very large degree not see any military or logistical use, but simply aided the process of re-building Soviet Union, and the work had already started in late 43. Read the books i referred to above, and you will get suprised how little "in %" of the Trucks and Trains they received after Mid 43 who actually ever saw military or military support use.

And due to that is why I say that from 43 they could done it alone (and of course that includes the equipment they had in 43, who was a lot, and also a lot more then what they ever would need for military operations, and yes a lot of it comed from the west) But Logistic recourses sent to them from Early 44 was more "rebuild Soviet" type of support, simply because they had all the Trucks they ever would need for the Army by then. That is why they would been able to do it alone from late 43, point again is that Operation Overloard was not necessary.
Regarding raw materials this was something Soviet indeed needed within several areas due to lack of logistics, and they did receive this support. See the bocks i referred to above if you want more details about this.
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Bearcat2 »

http://www.geocities.com/mark_willey/lend.html

Lend lease material sent to Russia from the US; only open if you have taken your ritalin today.

2 billion cans of Spam!!! no wonder the Russians hated us.
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by AW1Steve »

Guys , where is the logic in saying that this or that country won the war? They were allies for $$%^^ sake! I'd hate to play team sports with any of you! You'd think that you were the only one playing! Didn't all the countries shed enough blood, sweat and treasure to go around?! [&:]
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Bearcat2 »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Guys , where is the logic in saying that this or that country won the war? They were allies for $$%^^ sake! I'd hate to play team sports with any of you! You'd think that you were the only one playing! Didn't all the countries shed enough blood, sweat and treasure to go around?! [&:]


no; Brazil, got off easy.[;)]
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Terminus »

I refer you to post #63.
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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by anarchyintheuk »

ORIGINAL: Termite2

http://www.geocities.com/mark_willey/lend.html

Lend lease material sent to Russia from the US; only open if you have taken your ritalin today.

2 billion cans of Spam!!! no wonder the Russians hated us.

425m tons of steel? Seems farfetched.

Forgot how much rr equipment was sent.

I thought we sent more Spam to England.


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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: Japan

@Ok Jim D Burns, here is the point, if you read the souses i sent you, you will see what Soviet wanted and to large degree used the trucks for in 1943, you will get surprised.

Here is the point in my meaning, Soviet had received so much already by 43, that from there on they would be good, the Trucks they got from late 43+ did to a very large degree not see any military or logistical use, but simply aided the process of re-building Soviet Union, and the work had already started in late 43. Read the books i referred to above, and you will get suprised how little "in %" of the Trucks and Trains they received after Mid 43 who actually ever saw military or military support use.

And due to that is why I say that from 43 they could done it alone (and of course that includes the equipment they had in 43, who was a lot, and also a lot more then what they ever would need for military operations, and yes a lot of it comed from the west) But Logistic recourses sent to them from Early 44 was more "rebuild Soviet" type of support, simply because they had all the Trucks they ever would need for the Army by then. That is why they would been able to do it alone from late 43, point again is that Operation Overloard was not necessary.
Regarding raw materials this was something Soviet indeed needed within several areas due to lack of logistics, and they did receive this support. See the bocks i referred to above if you want more details about this.

Well assuming after 1943 that all lend lease aid was stopped, then it is a good bet that a significant portion (80% or more perhaps) of the following USSR production would not have occurred due to severe shortages of Rubber, Sulphur and Molybdenum (used in the production of steel alloys).

Soviet Production for 1944:

Tanks and self propelled guns: 28,963
Trucks: 52,600
Military aircraft: 40,246

Soviet Production for 1945:

Tanks and self propelled guns: 15,419
Trucks: 68,500
Military aircraft: 20,052

A case could be made that things like artillery pieces and machine guns would also have been affected, but that is debatable. The above items though, there can be no debate, without lend lease aid Russia would not have been able to produce them in such numbers.

Too many people try and equate lend lease aid with actual finished military equipment sent. But as an earlier link I provided shows, only 20% of the total lend lease aid was actual finished goods. The other 80% allowed Russia's industry to achieve the massive production numbers of modern equipment that it did. Without that *other* 80%, Russia's industry would have been a fraction of what it was.

Jim

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RE: Patton vs MacArthur

Post by Jim D Burns »

ORIGINAL: Termite2

http://www.geocities.com/mark_willey/lend.html

Lend lease material sent to Russia from the US; only open if you have taken your ritalin today.

2 billion cans of Spam!!! no wonder the Russians hated us.

Awesome link, thank you.

Jim
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