Patton vs MacArthur

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I've yet to read a bad review on the Machester book. Seems like a strong candidant. The fact that it was written in 78 and is still in print says something for i t right off.

I quite liked American Caesar. I still have an original addition and pull it down to read from time to time.

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

Yes,

there are plenty of good forums for those who prefer to glory in the skill of leaders and soldiers that fought in the name of honor or country for some of the most brutish, foul governments mankind has created. This is a game forum, and while playing the game, if you wish to imagine the IJN is fighting a war with honor and a generally positive purpose, fine. And if you do the same thing while playing other games as either Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union, fine. But when you are not playing, I hope you can step back into the reality of 1941 (and out of your current views on the U.S., the UK, etc.) and see these nation-states and the men who fought well for them for what they truly were--purveyors of human misery on a enormous scale for personal gain at the expense of others. No matter how skillful, intelligent, successful or personally “honorable” Guderian, Manstein or Zhukov may appear in the narrow lens of military history, they deserve no recognition. They were all in positions to know well enough that they were facilitating mass murder and human exploitation on a mind-numbing scale, but they put on the blinders of military duty. No truly great leader would do such a thing.

I grew up fascinated by men like Guderian. I met someone who claimed to be a relative of his many years ago. She seemed embarrassed at the time. After years of experience in combat, study and international politics, I now understand her embarrassment. There is no honor in serving a wrong cause well.

Hello Wirraway_Ace



I like your post, but I don't feel it is that black and white.

I do fully agree with you that men like Guderian, Zhukov and Manstein have a lot of gilt in human suffering, But unlike most users of this forum I also consider this to be the case for men like George S. Patton and General Lucius Clay, I have taken the liberty to post two quotes from this two fine heroes below, and each of the quotes refers to incidents claiming more then then 1 Million casualties! And that is casualties in Peace time, not in war time! I guess you did not learn that on your school !!


“It is amusing to recall that we fought the revolution in defense of the rights of man and the civil war to abolish slavery and have now gone back on both principles" - General George S. Patton (When sending huge numbers of German POW's to become Slave Labor in Soviet Union in definite, this was a condition for Soviet Agreeing to the 18th Articcle, but still..)


“I feel that the Germans should suffer from hunger and from cold as I believe such suffering is necessary to make them realize the consequences of a war which they caused.” - General Lucius Clay (Throughout all of 1945 the Allies forces of occupation ensured that no international aid reached ethnic Germans. It was directed that all relief went to non-German displaced persons, liberated Allied POWs, and concentration camp inmates, The women were under orders not to allow their German maids to get hold of any leftovers; "the food was to be destroyed or made inedible". German observers claim that this caused 2.5 to 3 million victims between the Oder and Elbe.


If you want to learn more about the details I recommend you do a Wiki search, a Google Search, or look at this forum post to read more about the details and to access several souses and other quotes. tm.asp?m=1976801&mpage=2&key=



It is a long time since I stopped thinking that War was about doing the right thing, war is about money or about political power and influence on the world. Controlling areas with large amount of important recourses generates both,
controlling important locations like the Suez Channel (UK and France Invaded it in 1956) or areas like Panama Channel (US ensured permanent control in 1989) are also of value, but in the end it comes down to Politics, not charity.
If it was about charity then we would been in Rawanda and all over the plase for years ago, this locations have no financial value, and is for this reason not worth the cost. War is about Politics, it is about ensuring its own financial or political interests.


So, buckle-up, because the Ignorant's storm will start soon below!





Regardless of side, I think ALL war is horrible and must be avoided!

.

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: Japan

So, buckle-up, because the Ignorant's storm will start soon below!

Did they unban you already?

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

ORIGINAL: Japan

So, buckle-up, because the Ignorant's storm will start soon below!

Did they unban you already?

Yes, same day as when they unban'ed Terminus and his crew.

[AW1Steve]

Back to the insults, eh Japan? If you can't convice them of your brilliance, yell at them. If that doesn't work, call them ignorant. And you wonder why there has been such a backlash to your posts.

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Back to the insults, eh Japan?

You should have seen him openly insulting, harassing and making fun of the Carrier Force dev team in the UV forums.

Edit: Pssh, my bad! That was someone else. I got them both mixed up based on their exact same treatment of people on the forums . . .

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Back to the insults, eh Japan?

You should have seen him openly insulting, harassing and making fun of the Carrier Force dev team in the UV forums.

Eh... there are not any posts by me at that forum at all.

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Back to the insults, eh Japan? If you can't convice them of your brilliance, yell at them. If that doesn't work, call them ignorant. And you wonder why there has been such a backlash to your posts.

Not sure I understand, I fear that my english has failed me, and If that is the case then I appology.

[AW1Steve]

So, buckle-up, because the Ignorant's storm will start soon below!

Suggests that anyone posting after you is ignorant. Just a bit of advice....just because someone doesn't agree with you , doesn't make them ignorant. Apologies are only meaningfull if they are sincere. Convince me...Knock it off! [:@]

[Wirraway_Ace]

Japan,

I agree with you that things are not black and white, but will happily argue that WW2 was very close to it. Nazi Germany had to be destroyed. Imperial Japan's conduct in China and during WW2 was systematically awful. Stalin's Soviet Union makes things tricky when talking about the "Allies". You could have a good argument that his government was as bad as Hitler's and the conduct of his armed forces during the war was truly tragic for its own soldiers and all those they met.

The UK and U.S. had plenty of incidents of poor behavior to give the anecdotal historian ammunition to say everything is gray. One can try and argue about their hidden motives and exploitation of other peoples and nations to say they were not that different. Sorry, but that is a load of crap. The UK and US were simply normal, flawed, democracies going about their business of trying to be successful and reasonably enlighten nation-states. The other three were something much worse. History has judged them. Don't try and rewrite it. They are not worth it. Relish rather what Germany and Japan have become after their own governments were forcibly replaced and cross your fingers for Russia.

[Wirraway_Ace]

I think you may be confusing Japan with IKE99...

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Back to the insults, eh Japan?

You should have seen him openly insulting, harassing and making fun of the Carrier Force dev team in the UV forums.

[Chad Harrison]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

I think you may be confusing Japan with IKE99...

By golly, your right! My apologies. Their attitude and 'kindness' is so similar that its easy to do so . . .

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

Japan,

I agree with you that things are not black and white, but will happily argue that WW2 was very close to it. Nazi Germany had to be destroyed. Imperial Japan's conduct in China and during WW2 was systematically awful. Stalin's Soviet Union makes things tricky when talking about the "Allies". You could have a good argument that his government was as bad as Hitler's and the conduct of his armed forces during the war was truly tragic for its own soldiers and all those they met.

The UK and U.S. had plenty of incidents of poor behavior to give the anecdotal historian ammunition to say everything is gray. One can try and argue about their hidden motives and exploitation of other peoples and nations to say they were not that different. Sorry, but that is a load of crap. The UK and US were simply normal, flawed, democracies going about their business of trying to be successful and reasonably enlighten nation-states. The other three were something much worse. History as judged them. Don't try and rewrite it. They are not worth it. Relish rather what Germany and Japan have become after their own governments were forcibly replaced and cross your fingers for Russia.

Yes sir, I Agree with you in All of that.


-

[DivePac88]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

Japan,

I agree with you that things are not black and white, but will happily argue that WW2 was very close to it. Nazi Germany had to be destroyed. Imperial Japan's conduct in China and during WW2 was systematically awful. Stalin's Soviet Union makes things tricky when talking about the "Allies". You could have a good argument that his government was as bad as Hitler's and the conduct of his armed forces during the war was truly tragic for its own soldiers and all those they met.

The UK and U.S. had plenty of incidents of poor behavior to give the anecdotal historian ammunition to say everything is gray. One can try and argue about their hidden motives and exploitation of other peoples and nations to say they were not that different. Sorry, but that is a load of crap. The UK and US were simply normal, flawed, democracies going about their business of trying to be successful and reasonably enlighten nation-states. The other three were something much worse. History as judged them. Don't try and rewrite it. They are not worth it. Relish rather what Germany and Japan have become after their own governments were forcibly replaced and cross your fingers for Russia.

That’s the story in a nut-shell, one of the best short-summaries I’ve ever read, I congratulate you Wirraway_Ace. Will it stop this fur-fight… probably not.

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Japan




Hello Wirraway_Ace



I like your post, but I don't feel it is that black and white.

I do fully agree with you that men like Guderian, Zhukov and Manstein have a lot of gilt in human suffering, But unlike most users of this forum I also consider this to be the case for men like George S. Patton and General Lucius Clay, I have taken the liberty to post two quotes from this two fine heroes below, and each of the quotes refers to incidents claiming more then then 1 Million casualties! And that is casualties in Peace time, not in war time! I guess you did not learn that on your school !!


“It is amusing to recall that we fought the revolution in defense of the rights of man and the civil war to abolish slavery and have now gone back on both principles" - General George S. Patton (When sending huge numbers of German POW's to become Slave Labor in Soviet Union in definite, this was a condition for Soviet Agreeing to the 18th Articcle, but still..)


“I feel that the Germans should suffer from hunger and from cold as I believe such suffering is necessary to make them realize the consequences of a war which they caused.” - General Lucius Clay (Throughout all of 1945 the Allies forces of occupation ensured that no international aid reached ethnic Germans. It was directed that all relief went to non-German displaced persons, liberated Allied POWs, and concentration camp inmates, The women were under orders not to allow their German maids to get hold of any leftovers; "the food was to be destroyed or made inedible". German observers claim that this caused 2.5 to 3 million victims between the Oder and Elbe.

Japan, I do not think these quotes make your case as you may think.

Regardless of side, I think ALL war is horrible and must be avoided!

.

WW2 was horrible, but those nations that Germany and Japan attacked were not given the option of avoiding it I am afraid.

[Japan]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: Japan




Hello Wirraway_Ace



I like your post, but I don't feel it is that black and white.

I do fully agree with you that men like Guderian, Zhukov and Manstein have a lot of gilt in human suffering, But unlike most users of this forum I also consider this to be the case for men like George S. Patton and General Lucius Clay, I have taken the liberty to post two quotes from this two fine heroes below, and each of the quotes refers to incidents claiming more then then 1 Million casualties! And that is casualties in Peace time, not in war time! I guess you did not learn that on your school !!


“It is amusing to recall that we fought the revolution in defense of the rights of man and the civil war to abolish slavery and have now gone back on both principles" - General George S. Patton (When sending huge numbers of German POW's to become Slave Labor in Soviet Union in definite, this was a condition for Soviet Agreeing to the 18th Articcle, but still..)


“I feel that the Germans should suffer from hunger and from cold as I believe such suffering is necessary to make them realize the consequences of a war which they caused.” - General Lucius Clay (Throughout all of 1945 the Allies forces of occupation ensured that no international aid reached ethnic Germans. It was directed that all relief went to non-German displaced persons, liberated Allied POWs, and concentration camp inmates, The women were under orders not to allow their German maids to get hold of any leftovers; "the food was to be destroyed or made inedible". German observers claim that this caused 2.5 to 3 million victims between the Oder and Elbe.

Japan, I do not think these quotes make your case as you may think.

Of course not, but the intention is to show that they all got blood at their hands, I do not see the need to deliberetly starve a entire people for 6 months, and I do not understand why one should make political agreements based on the amount of German POW's one would get as compensation. Ok, Germany has to take the responsibility for causing huge destruction in Soviet, but should the individual soldiers have to go back there after the war to rebuild it? and under miserable conditions?

Several Germans surrendered to the Allies, not knowing that USA would send them to be used as slaves by Soviet Union from 1946. And this I personally find anoying, that human life can be traded with in that facion.


The only point here is, that they All got blood at their hands, A lot of Blood.

I don't see that big of a difference between a "Normal" German General and a "Normal" Soviet General.. and a "Normal" US General. They All Killed Civilliens in large scale, the two first with Artillety ect, and the last mantioned from the Air and then for some time by nation-wide "terror" decissions made during material law.

[Historiker]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

[8|] The point is, these threads ALWAYS and without exception end up like this. They always have, from far before both Historiker and Japan showed up here.

It's completely irrelevant what the subject is, if you start a "Was A better than B?" thread, it goes down the same tedious tunnel. No discussion, only more and more odious posts on both sides, until BOOM, it dies a deserved death.

Now I understand what you mean:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

INCOMING!

[Wirraway_Ace]

Thanks DivePac88,

on that note, I will bail on this thread. I have vented my anger in as theraputic way as I could...

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Japan



The only point here is, that they All got blood at their hands, A lot of Blood.

I don't see that big of a difference between a "Normal" German General and a "Normal" Soviet General.. and a "Normal" US General. They All Killed Civilliens in large scale, the two first with Artillety ect, and the last mantioned from the Air and then for some time by "terror" decissions made during material law.

I am sorry, but I hope some day that you can. There was an enormous difference in what they set out to do, why they did it, and their views (in general) on the value of their soldiers lives and the lives of others. I always appreciate your thoughts, although some make me grit my teeth. This was originally a Mac and Patton thread. Lets let it go back to that and leave the war in europe to another thread.

[Anthropoid]

I've seen discussions like this one on a number of boards before. The point that it is "not black and white" is well-worth making. But if you really want to make that point, and stick to it, then you are agreeing to be willing to recognize the foibles, the weaknesses, the shortsightedness, the delusions, maybe even the unethical or wholesale inhumane actions/beliefs/statements of your 'favs' whomever or whatever they may be.
 
Evil and good are not essential things, even if you accept any culture-specific epistemology of such a moral dichotomy. Even Buddha abandoned his wife and children as part of his quest to find enlightenment. I would even bet that Jesus did some bad things in his day.
 
But this does not discount the reality of _relative_ harm.
 
At various points in its history, the United States government, or factions operating within it, or factions in control of it, have been responsible for policies or actions which are (IMHO) categorically wrong and unnecessarily harmful. The Trail of Tears, the Tuskegee Airman project, _maybe_ even the recent waterboarding stuff though I tend to lean toward the notion that some of the rough handling those guys got was not only deserved but warranted as an effort to minimize risk of still greater harm to large numbers of people. In any event, there is a fairly long list of historical events that are reasonable candidates for "U.S. wrongs."
 
Loving your culture or nation and its people, and its historical figures and even the central principles on which it is founded does not necessarily mean that you must turn a blind eye to the injustices that have been perpetrated as a result/in the name of such social causes.
 
However, when comparing Nazi Germany, or Fascist Japan, or Stalinist USSR, or even by degrees Fascist Italy, with the allied powers who defeated them (either in WWII, or in the Cold War that followed), and implying if not stating that "they were no worse" I have to say: poor logic, poor rhetoric, and suspicious agenda.
 
Relative to the injustices inherent in allied societies and in the actions they took during the war, the injustices inherent in the Axis nations, and the actions they took during the war are like comparing the number 1,000,000 with the number 10,000,000, indeed, given the Axis were the instigators of the war, you might well argue that the number 60,000,000 to 70,000,000 is the better relative indicator of the Axis injustice. No matter who they were as individuals, "heroes," scions of cultural traditions, of honor, loyalty or whatever, ALL those who fought for the Axis fought to further this relatively much greater magnitude of injustice, and those who fought for the Allies fought against it.
 
Does that mean the Allies were the relative "good guys" and the Axis were the relative "bad guys?" Does it moreover mean that the "Free World Powers" were the relative "good guys" vis a vis the "Communist Bloc Powers" as the relative "bad guys" (some formerly part of the allies) following WWI?
 
I say yes on both counts.