French commandos have british ranks and uniforms

[7A_Bjorn]

French commandos on Ouistreham have british ranks and looks like british uniforms.

[squadleader_id]

French Commandos were trained by the British Commandos.  They used British uniforms and equipment.
Edit: They were part of No. 10 (Inter-Allied) Commando, but were attached to No. 4 Commando in Normandy.

I'm not sure about the medals though...should Free French troops receive French Medals or British Medals?

[samarobriva]

French Commandos used French ranks and French medals

see http://commandos-fnfl.ifrance.com/Pge%20Badge.htm

[squadleader_id]

Nice link, samarobriva!
Looks like they're using French Naval ranks from those uniforms & patches pics.
I've also seen some photos of No. 10 (Inter-Allied) Commando troops using British ranks though.

Another fix candidate for the patch?

[Andrew Williams]

I've seen the French commandos with that gear at Dieppe.

And I;ve seen French commandos on D-Day with standard Brit commando insignia.......


the plot thickens

[squadleader_id]

http://www.alliedforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=1604



commander Philippe Kieffer


Reenactment photos:

[samarobriva]

Some 15 Free French took part in Dieppe.
Only one was killed. Second Maître Serge Moutaillier

Here is the list who took part into the operation

lieutenant Françis VOURCH
quartier-maitre Georges ROPERT
matelot Gabriel LOVERINI
quartier-maître Maurice CESAR
second maître Serge MOUTAILLIER
second-maitre Raymond de WANDELAER

second-maitre Raymond DUMANOIR
matelot Jean SIMON
matelot Georges JEAN
quartier-maitre Jean ERRARD
quartier maître René RABOUHANS

matelot Pierre TANNIOU
matelot Ange BORRETINI
quartier maitre René TAVERNE
second maître Francis BALOCHE

[samarobriva]

Here a photo from capitaine Charles Trépel in July 1943.

Note the green béret were given a few weeks after the Dieppe operation. So the reenactment photos are wrong

[squadleader_id]

Actually those are reenactment photos of D-Day landings at Ouisterham...that's why the Commandos are marching off the beach [;)]
So what's the verdict on historical French Commandos ranks on D-Day? French Naval ranks instead of British ranks?

[RD Oddball]

Fantastic info guys!!!   PLEASE, Keep it coming.  We're close.

I'll ask Steve if he had research to support what we've presented.  I think the assumption that they would've worn British ranks and uniforms was consistent with the policies of the Commonwealth Army.  Knowing their perspective on creating unity through consistent presentation and their strict overall approach organization therein I'd be surprised if any exceptions were made.  Likely few and probably given as reward for valor.

Without a photograph that is dated in the caption showing French commandos at Normandy with both left and right shoulders clearly displayed we'll have to leave them as is.  So that's what you're looking for.  Photographs from reinactors are the equivalent of using CC as proof of historical events.  Not proof of anything despite their attention to detail.  Also photographs from other theaters or operations is not proof as well since things could've changed from month to month.  i.e. 1942 to 1944.  Two years is an eternity in the WWII timeline.

I'd be interested in seeing a full translation of the entire page samabrovia posted if anyone is interested.  I don't trust the online translator pages.  Too many opportunities for errors and every detail is important here.

*edit*
Also, lets not forget we're talking about the shirt type (color, cloth type) and rank type. It's HIGHLY likely the French commandos used the same exact shirt type and rank types as the rest of the Commonwealth forces. So far the only thing presented that is clearly discernable on this page shows patches. Without a side by side, confirmed comparison between standard Commonwealth shirt type and a supposed French Commando shirt type we have to assume they were the same. None of this has anything to do with ranks. There are no plans to change the patches since the inclusion of the French Commandos with the British 3rd ID was an abstraction put into place by us.

[samarobriva]

Here a better information
http://www.netmarine.net/forces/command ... 8jourj.htm

This comes from the first two paragraph

The commando training was provided by the British army. "Infantry Army" ranks were used in official reports, except those designed for the Naval Forces of France Libre (FNFL), who jealously guarded the designations for a Marine unit, about one-third could come from other groups.

The French, in addition to the badge "France" at the top of the shoulder were wearing their ranks: From Second Maître (Sgt)on black epaulettes; From Matelot (Private) to Quartier-maître (L/Sgt) their grade was shown by a small piece of lace sewn to the jacket between the 2nd and 3rd button.



The uniform is Commonwealth battle-dress 1937 or 1942, Field Service Marchind Order 1937,

http://commandokieffer.canalblog.com/ That page has most of the pictures from the commandos. It includes a picture from the uniform in june 1944 roughly at middle of the page. To get it search for "Sans le savoir, en 1956-1957 nous portions les mêmes blousons" (remove brackets) which means without knowing it we were wearing the same kind of shirt in 1956-1957

Then to see pictures from that period do a search with "IMG 70" (remove brackets). It seems that during combat they wear no ranks while in ceremony they do wear french ranks.

[Andrew Williams]

small piece of lace sewn to the jacket between the 2nd and 3rd button.

I've seen this on the front of the shirt at a diagonal.... maybe that was what they wore into battle and the shoulder ranks during ceremony like the picture below of commander Philippe Kieffer.

[samarobriva]

Same soldier but no ranks from what I see


That one with Monty and Kieffer clearly show ranks either on Kieffer shoulders as on soldiers in the back

I've seen this on the front of the shirt at a diagonal.... maybe that was what they wore into battle and the shoulder ranks during ceremony like the picture below of commander Philippe Kieffer.

My guess is that they removed any information while on combat.
It is clearly stated that from the rank of Sgt/Major or Premier maître up to Major or Capitaine de corvette the rank is shown on the shoulder. Lower ranks have had their ranks between the 2 nd and 3rd button.

From all the french sites on Kieffer they all stated that the only ranks that were used are the french ones. French pride !! [;)]

[PztRonson]

Maybe this would be of interest, a few photos of French commandos of the era.
http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/10IA/
 
The shoulder ranks shown worn by commander Kieffer in the earlier photo look like slip-ons, which would most likely have been removed in battle, as they provided a very visable indication for enemy snipers.
 
During the Normandy campaign the British forces soon learned to discard badges, and other signs of rank, pistols, map cases etc. when in action, for this reason.

[squadleader_id]

From Osprey - Elite 142 -  No.10 (Inter Allied) Commando 1942-45:





From Osprey Men-at-Arms 238 Foreign Volunteers of the Allied Forces 1939-45:


Looks to me The French Commandos did use French Naval ranks in Normany...and not British stripes and officer pips.
I'll see if I can whip up some new ranks graphics (maybe for a small submod)...but I'll need help with the French Naval ranks chart compared to the CC ranks chart.
The ranks worn between the 2nd and 3rd button might look strange when translated to CC ranks gadgets though.
French medals too? How about using the French medals from Meuse mod?

[squadleader_id]

More photos from Osprey Elite 142...but unfortunately without clear shots of rank insignias.
Edit: Oops...of course you can't see any ranks...most of the Commandos in the photos are privates...and they also discarded their ranks in combat [;)]

[squadleader_id]

OK...here's my first attempt...I hope my French Naval ranks chart translation to CC ranks chart isn't too far off [:)]

[squadleader_id]

...and French Medals from CC5 Meuse mod.

[RD Oddball]

RE: research - Works for me!  Nice work guys!!
 
Nice work on the graphics Squadleader_ID.  Send them if you want me to include those in addition to your Brit AB ranks.  Thanks!!!

[squadleader_id]

ORIGINAL: RD_Oddball

RE: research - Works for me!  Nice work guys!!

Nice work on the graphics Squadleader_ID.  Send them if you want me to include those in addition to your Brit AB ranks.  Thanks!!!

Will do, Oddball...check your e-mail [;)]