Read the superb Germany and the Second World War

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

ORIGINAL: Helpless

before the Red Army invaded and slaughtered every remaining people

really?

I couldn't write here nowadays

not that bad thought

I know a man who is from Breslau. He was 15 years old when Germany surrendered. There were many millions of Germans who suffered the same things he did (including his father being KIA on the Russian front). Lutzow simply stated facts as related to him regarding a specific comment about German generals. If you knew a little more about what transpired in those days in eastern Germany you would not have made the comment you just did. Not flaming you at all, but that is what could shut down a start of an interesting discussion-if it already not too late.

Obviously, his statement of "every" person being slaughtered in an exaggeration, but as far as the civilians of the time were concerned, it was accurate, because you couldn't be foolish enough to stay behind and think they would spare you.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Lutzow simply stated facts as related to him regarding a specific comment about German generals. If you knew a little more about what transpired in those days in eastern Germany you would not have made the comment you just did. Not flaming you at all, but that is what could shut down a start of an interesting discussion-if it already not too late.

Oh yeah, now it's a "fact" that Red Army invaded and slaughtered every remaining people.. [8|]

We are getting a little OT, but all I will say is that it did happen in a big way in many areas. Entire towns were never heard from again-not a single survivor. I don't think Lutzow meant to say everyone in Silesia was killed-only making a point that the German Army did in fact do their best to allow civilians to get away. Its rather clear that millions did survive both the initial onslaught and the following "resettlement". Although the subject is taboo in some areas-especially Germany, the fact is that many did not survive.

If these new books deny certain realities to suite some modern program, then it should be pointed out. As many historical books go, these will most likely have a few areas where an ax is being ground. These should still be read as it sounds like a huge amount of detailed info. Whether the info is 80% or 99% accurate will never be agreed on by all.

[Helpless]

Entire towns were never heard from again-not a single survivor.

sources? or do you mean Dresden?

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Entire towns were never heard from again-not a single survivor.

sources? or do you mean Dresden?

This is not the place to get into this. And no, not Dresden. If you like I can send you a link to some info.

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

I recommend people to read this book to learn about how the Russian and German soldiers behaved in the final days of the war.  It is based on personal accounts of people who were in the thick of the fighting.  It is written by a British army officer.

http://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Halbe-H ... 0750936894

[Helpless]

mainly for decouvering the Wehrmacht superman myth

i do agree on many statements, but if we take only military aspect, all the stats show that Wehrmacht was superior to the it's foes. Here is quite interesting pages from Zetterling Normandy book showing Dupuy formulas..

[Helpless]

If you like I can send you a link to some info.

yes, please

Edit: I just hope it's not a Beevor or another "chilling, but true account" like this

http://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Halbe-H ... 0750936894

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Helpless

If you like I can send you a link to some info.

yes, please

Edit: I just hope it's not a Beevor or another "chilling, but true account" like this

http://www.amazon.com/Slaughter-Halbe-H ... 0750936894

PM sent.

[wosung]

Tell this my grandma who got a spot for her and the kids at one of the last outgoing trains from Silesia, before the Red Army invaded and slaughtered every remaining people. If the Wehrmacht had not delay the russian advance, I couldn't write here nowadays.

Frankly, I consider some posts in this thread as rather offending. If you're looking for German books, covering East Front, I'd rather suggest post-war era titles like 'Unternehmen Barbarossa' and 'Verbrannte Erde (Scorched Earth) from Paul Carrel.

Oh yeah, the Paul Carell books are exactly what I meant, when I spoke about apologetic war memoirs from the 1960s. They wre translated into English and often cited by British and American historians. He was one of those, who formed the picture of the Wehrmacht not only in Germany, but also in the USA and Britain.

You know who this Mr. Paul Carell was?

His name is an alias for Paul Karl Schmidt (1911-1997), 1931 member of the NSDAP, psycological doctor, SS Obersturmbannführer, 1940-45 public relations chief of the German Foreign office. As a specialist for media manipulation he recommended to create faked reasons for the deportation of Hungarian jews in 1944.

After the war, in the good old 1950s under the alias of Paul Carell he wrote frex for the German newspapers Die Zeit, Der Spiegel and Kristall, where fellow journalists quitted their jobs when they learned his background.

Can't you see it? It's like having Comical Ali write a History of the last days of Saddam Husseins regime.

Wigbert Benz, Paul Carell. Ribbentrops Pressechef Paul Karl Schmidt vor und nach 1945, Berlin 2005.

Jürgen Zarusky, Nützlicher Überflieger. Die merkwürdige Karriere des Paul Carell [A useful rocket scientist: The bizarre carreer of Paul Carell], in: Süddeutsche Zeitung,No. 239 (17.10.2005), p. 10.

As for your grandma fleeing from Eastern Germany: Sorry to hear that she was a victim of this horrible time.

But it were German Gauleiter (Nazi party area leaders) in the East, like Erich Koch et al., who 1945 under “Führer” orders forbade the timely evacuation of the civilian population, but theirself got out of Dodge when it was time. And the Wehrmacht leadership more times than not monoplized the traffic routes and chased of civilian refugees. Dönitz became sucessor of Hitler not because the Kriegsmarine saved civilians, but because he was one of the toughest hardliners who wanted to fight on in May 1945. German occupation generals in quite Denmark and Norway complained, that they had no occasion to send their troops into a last real battle.

Heinrich Schwendemann, Strategie der Selbstvernichtung. Die Wehrmachtsführung im “Endkampf” um das “Dritte Reich” [Strategy of self-destruction. Wehrmacht leadership in the “final battle” for the “Third Reich”], in: Die Wehrmacht. Mythos und Realität [The Wehrmacht. Myth and reality], p. 224-244.

Sorry that I’m unable to cite sources written in English. But that fact exactly is part of my whole point: Parts of popular book culture in Britain and the USA is still dominated by old German apologists. This is not because of some evil & dark forces. Just because translations are expensive. And that’s why the above mentioned series is valuable.

Regards

[06 Maestro]

Well Wosung, you have really got my interest up to read these books. Perhaps you can convince the German Government that, for the good of the world and the study of history, that it should subsidize the translations of these works.[;)] Seriously, I would love to read them-and I am not quite fluent in German (an understatement).

You should not assume that all histories from the war here in the states are sympathetic with the German Army. I will not venture to put a percentage on it, but there are many I recall reading that seemed unduly harsh and had clear inaccuracies- it is not a one way street here.

The fact that the author in question was a Nazi/SS officer does not mean that he cannot write a good and factual history. If was of a mindset that it was OK to ship people for murder, that is another situation altogether. If he did do that; was he not prosecuted?

I know of one "Nazi" that I hold in very high esteem as a writer-Leon Degrella. He joined the Wallonian Waffen SS as a private (and ended the war as a general) after Barbarossa. That man's related first hand accounts of the front are absolutely stunning-by far the best that I have ever read. He was a great author regardless of his allegiance during the war. I have no reason to doubt his truthfulness. He was a published author before the war and continued in that venue (from Spain) after the war.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Brave words. Of course everyone sitting at there desktop today knows exactly how they could have stopped the flow of events of WW2-to bad there were no brave and honorable men around back then.[8|]

There were brave and honourable men around back then. They were fighting and dying to stop Nazis.
And yes, there was a German resistance against Nazis. But I guess that soldiers who fought for Nazis are much greater heroes.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Brave words. Of course everyone sitting at there desktop today knows exactly how they could have stopped the flow of events of WW2-to bad there were no brave and honorable men around back then.[8|]

There were brave and honourable men around back then. They were fighting and dying to stop Nazis.
And yes, there was a German resistance against Nazis. But I guess that soldiers who fought for Nazis are much greater heroes.

The one thing worse than war is defeat-especially if you are fighting the Red Army. First things first.

I recall in one old book I have around here someplace; PZ Leader (or Battles)- a statement that "after the war the rabble that has come to power will be eliminated". The author Von Mellethin (spelling) a rather high ranking GSO (served in DAK (Operations Officer 1A)until Alamein and 1A of the 47th (IIRC) PZ Korp) and one command in the west before the end. According to this officer, such talk was becoming common by 1944 as the faults, criminal behavior and excesses of the Nazi system were becoming apparent to many. Nazi Germany was not going to last much beyond Hitler -regardless of who won the war.

And, BTW, the victorious side was not made up of solely good and brave men.

The simple truth is that people get caught up in the great events of their day. There is not too much that Joe snuffy can do about it. Of course, someone can just commit suicide as an escape, but that is not a common human desire. Men did what they had to do and hoped (and planned)for a better future. There were monstrous actions, but these were carried out by a very distinct few.

If the German Generals had a crystal ball (which some apparently did not need to see the future), Hitler would have been taken out when the Chief of the German General Staff (Beck) was ousted in '39. Not enough Generals had the inside info to make a decision other than follow the lawful orders from their commanders. After the war started, there was not much that could have been done without venturing into fantasy land. Efforts were made-and those failed. Tens of thousands of Germans died in resistance/attempted overthrow of Hitler-including many Nazi Party members Generals and at least one Field Marshall.

My position is: if the German General Staff is to be accused of cowardice and incompetence, just what are we using as a gauge? The Bell Curve system? The new testament? How do they compare, action by action, considering the odds, with their opponents? I say they were the best in their profession-certainly not infallible, but very good, and for the most part,decent men who did the best they could.

And, BTW, we are taking about German military books that may contain "facts" that might just be unfair.
I have been in similar discussions about the French Army of 1940. Fair is fair.

[Perturabo]

Impossible to know?
So, pre-war Nazis, totally, like weren't racist?

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Impossible to know?
So, pre-war Nazis, totally, like weren't racist?

Compared to who? Compared to some today (and then) they would be perfectly cosmopolitan. Of course, racism for some is fine-just better not be those nasty German generals.

I'm not aware of racism being part of the subject matter of the book list presented here. Just because an officer joins the political party in power does not mean he is a raging lunatic. And, regarding the German population as a whole, the Nazi Party was not elected into majority rule.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Compared to who? Compared to some today (and then) they would be perfectly cosmopolitan. Of course, racism for some is fine-just better not be those nasty German generals.

:facepalm:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

I'm not aware of racism being part of the subject matter of the book list presented here. Just because an officer joins the political party in power does not mean he is a raging lunatic.

Which happens to be the Nazi party. Simply, if you join scum, you become the scum.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Which happens to be the Nazi party. Simply, if you join scum, you become the scum.

Those are some pretty high standards you have there. In some places and times such standards are easy to maintain- some others; not so easy.

IMO, high ranking officers would have been drawn to the Nazi Party due to the promise of correcting the injustice of a seriously flawed peace treaty. This did not mean there had to be a war had Hitler stopped at a reasonable point (Sudetenland). I doubt that professional military men who joined the Party during the twenties or early thirties really even gave the racist aspects of Nazism much thought, credence or belief that anything would come of it except good press coverage during an Olympics.

Too bad that we can't find out what percentage of senior officers actually read Mien Kamf. From what I have heard it was the biggest best seller that was hardly read. Oh I'm sure everyone tried, but it must have been tough to finish it. I finished it and was amazed-not at the content which I expected, but the organization, or lack of, and repetitiveness of the book. Its not something someone would want to study.
Besides, the real Adolf was the guy kissing babies and petting dogs on the political campaign trail.

After the Nuremberg Laws and later there can be no doubt that many joined the party just to feel safe in their position-military or civilian.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

:facepalm:

Oh yea, cute and what I expected at some point.
I can't undue a lifetime of mind control via the internet-just killing some time. Enjoy the rest of the thread.

[Lützow]

ORIGINAL: wosung

Can't you see it? It's like having Comical Ali write a History of the last days of Saddam Husseins regime.

As far as I know Ali got sentenced to death but who would be better qualified to write a biography about Saddam as somebody who had deep insight in all his plans and actions, somebody of his personal staff ?

Anyway, the whole topic touches a tender spot which probably can be only understood if you're German. You won't find many people in my country nowadays to agree with Hitler but the vast majority here is fed up to hear about Nazi crimes though. Modern German WW2 literature is impressed from political slant and thus I prefer post-war era books which focus on a pure militairy perspective. For this the Carell books are a good reference, as well as reminiscences of Manstein and Guderian. Even they may have put some personal mistakes on the dead Hitler to look better in historical retrospection. Anyway, if German High Command had been really that incompetent, how comes they steamrolled most of Europe and it took 6 years to defeat them?

After all Barbarossa indeed has become a myth, kinda like civil war for Americans. When people still try to turn the outcome by reenactment and stuff, nobody judges southern generals for their personal stance about slavery, because it simply doesn't matter for wargaming.

[Lützow]

double post

[wosung]

ORIGINAL: Lützow

ORIGINAL: wosung

Can't you see it? It's like having Comical Ali write a History of the last days of Saddam Husseins regime.

As far as I know Ali got sentenced to death but who would be better qualified to write a biography about Saddam as somebody who had deep insight in all his plans and actions, somebody of his personal staff ?

Anyway, the whole topic touches a tender spot which probably can be only understood if you're German. You won't find many people in my country nowadays to agree with Hitler but the vast majority here is fed up to hear about Nazi crimes though. Modern German WW2 literature is impressed from political slant and thus I prefer post-war era books which focus on a pure militairy perspective. For this the Carell books are a good reference, as well as reminiscences of Manstein and Guderian. Even they may have put some personal mistakes on the death Hitler to look better in historical retrospection. Anyway, if German High Command had been really that incompetent, how comes they steamrolled most of Europe and it took 6 years to defeat them?

After all Barbarossa indeed has become a myth, kinda like civil war for Americans. When people still try to turn the outcome by reenactment and stuff, nobody judges southern generals for their personal stance about slavery, because it simply doesn't matter for wargaming.

Obviously you can’t see it. Because Comical Ali wasn’t only a spectator to Saddam. He was deeply involved in the regime. Thus he had good reasons, to tell his story in a certain way, with a certain spin. He wouldn’t write about his guilt and his incompetence, about the guilt & incompetence of his professional peers, would he?

Carell just collected memoirs of (mostly) officers, division histories and so on. Those sources had every reason to cover up their professional failures. Same with Dagrelle. There was reason to it, why after WW2 he lived in Francos Spain.

What’s a good factual history? How can the next generations decide this? They were not on the spot, when “it” happened. Contemporaries have their own agenda reaching in the past and present, plus: memory itself changes what was experienced, to make sense of it all. Therefore I trust the archive files more than the contemporaries.


About famous German military efficiency (including an earlier post about Dupuy’s formula).
Yes it took 6 years to beat the Wehrmacht.

But beaten they were.

Also in WW1.

So obviously German military efficiency had its limit.

This was perhaps the most interesting thought I got out of Richard Overys “Why the Allied won”.

Militaristic societies like das Deutsches Kaiserreich or Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan prepared thoroughly for “the next war”. Thus came their tactical and operational efficiency. This is confirmed by “Germany and the Second World War” as well.

But obviously this is not enough to win wars.

Above mentioned societies failed in the field of strategy, economy, (arguably) technology, (alliance) diplomacy.

A narrow martial racist world view and authoritarian structures help with tactics.

But they hinder all the rest what is important in modern inter-state conflicts: They result in megalomanic unrealistic strategies, social darwinistic fights for ressources in the regime, wastages of technical potential, and incompetence for coalition warfare and commission decision-finding (instead of “Führerentscheid”).

Thus those militaristic societies in a deeper sense were unfit for modern war.

”Modern German WW2 literature is impressed from political slant and thus I prefer post-war era books which focus on a pure militairy perspective.”

Hu?

Nice try!

Sure, the political slant is always a problem of “the other side”. Purely military perspectives have no slant at all.

Regards