a small question

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mdiehl
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RE: a small question

Post by mdiehl »

Yes, the Japanese horribly mistreated their POW's. Yet that was not an indication of some inherent flaw within the Japanese race, but instead an outflow of the Japanese Warrior Code.


That is not correct. The Japanese Bushido tradition required that ANY person who surrenders be treated humanely. It was dishonorable to surrender but that was not grounds for abuse, not even to enemy combatants. The Bushido tradition absolutely celebrated honorable conduct towards civilians. That which was done in China, the Philippines, and to western civilian captives in Malaysia and on Wake Island was about as far from Bushido as one could get, and the people who implemented the policy wholly lacked any honor even by the prevailing cultural standards of Meiji Japan. That the Japanese had descended so far into barbarism as to celebrate events such as occurred in Nanking simply demonstrates how far the Japanese had deviated from any of their own moral traditions.

The Japanese knew it was morally wrong to do so. Many Japanese, especially those in the IJN, noted as much in their diaries and in their postwar testimonies. That is why so many Japanese perps worked so hard to cover up their actions. They knew at the time that it was wrong by Japanese standards and they also knew that it was wrong by western standards, and they knew that if Japan lost the war they would be judged on account of it. Plenty of Japanese knew what the west expected in re treatment of prisoners and civilians, and they even knew enough of western military history to understand that a mechanism existed to free the Japanese empire of the burden of caring for and feeding prisoners. They simply chose to ignore their own moral teachings, ignore what they knew of the west's attitudes, and ignore the fact that the likely outcome of a prolongued war was Japanese defeat.
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RE: a small question

Post by anarchyintheuk »

ORIGINAL: Flying Tiger
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Is there really a town called 'Mosquito Bite'????? Man, you guys really are crazy!

There's a town called Mesquite in Texas. Mosquito Bite would be one of the less than flattering nicknames for it.
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RE: a small question

Post by vettim89 »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Yes, the Japanese horribly mistreated their POW's. Yet that was not an indication of some inherent flaw within the Japanese race, but instead an outflow of the Japanese Warrior Code.


That is not correct. The Japanese Bushido tradition required that ANY person who surrenders be treated humanely. It was dishonorable to surrender but that was not grounds for abuse, not even to enemy combatants. The Bushido tradition absolutely celebrated honorable conduct towards civilians. That which was done in China, the Philippines, and to western civilian captives in Malaysia and on Wake Island was about as far from Bushido as one could get, and the people who implemented the policy wholly lacked any honor even by the prevailing cultural standards of Meiji Japan. That the Japanese had descended so far into barbarism as to celebrate events such as occurred in Nanking simply demonstrates how far the Japanese had deviated from any of their own moral traditions.

The Japanese knew it was morally wrong to do so. Many Japanese, especially those in the IJN, noted as much in their diaries and in their postwar testimonies. That is why so many Japanese perps worked so hard to cover up their actions. They knew at the time that it was wrong by Japanese standards and they also knew that it was wrong by western standards, and they knew that if Japan lost the war they would be judged on account of it. Plenty of Japanese knew what the west expected in re treatment of prisoners and civilians, and they even knew enough of western military history to understand that a mechanism existed to free the Japanese empire of the burden of caring for and feeding prisoners. They simply chose to ignore their own moral teachings, ignore what they knew of the west's attitudes, and ignore the fact that the likely outcome of a prolongued war was Japanese defeat.

Excellant points Mdiehl. I would only counter that Bushido had been bastardized by the time of the outbreak of WWII. It had been blended with nationalism and militarism to the point where it was hardly recognizable. It is said that in every lie there is a kernel of truth. I think especially the Japanese Army understood that they could take the cultural traditions of Japan and bend them to their own purpose. As a whole the education level of the IJN was much higher than the IJA; hence, it is not surprising that the records of objections to the conduct of the war would be found in the Navy. The WWII Japanese army was a peasant army. They were largely uneducated and did what they were told. Those in positions of authority fully understood that their troops could be taught in a way to develop a fanatical force that would do whatever they were told because it was their duty not only to their commanders but to their families and their ancestors. Of note, Islamaic Extremist use the same tactics today.
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RE: a small question

Post by Canoerebel »

Even taking into consideration radiation, fewer casualties were inflicted by the two atomic bombs than in several single incendiary raids.  So, in World War II, the use of an atomic bomb was neither better nor worse than conventional bombing.  It accomplished the same thing - destroyed most of a city and killed a heck of alot of people.
 
Death is death and it is naive or irrational to claim that the two WWII uses of the atomic bomb was somehow "worse" than other means of inflicting casualties. (True, the threat posed by atomic bombs changed the nature and threat of warfare and presented the possibility of death on an unimagineable scale, but that was after the war; we're talking here about the two occasions when the atomic bombs were used).
 
When I was at the University of Georgia in the 1980s, anti-war students would lie on the pavement and paint chalk outlines around their bodies to protest the use of atomic bombs at Nagasaki and Hiroshima.  For the reasons stated above, I wondered why they didn't also protest the incendiary deaths.  I also wanted to come back on December 7 and do my own chalk outline to protest the suprise attack on Pearl Harbor. 
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RE: a small question

Post by m10bob »

Like Robin Hood once said..........."Back to the game!"

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RE: a small question

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Ike99
The IJA had a long tradition of brutality within it's own ranks. And when everyone can (and does) administer brutal corporal punishment to those below them (and your Officers hold "beheading contests"), then there developes a natural tendency to pile abuse and mistreatment on whatever victims come your way. Throw in constant propaganda to fight to the last, and that surrender is the ultimate failure of a soldier, and foriegn POW's are really going to be mistreated.

This is all true Mike but I wonder what the behavior towards foreign POWs will be when the constant propaganda says the enemy is not ¨human¨ but ¨little monkey children?¨

No Mercy

I can answer that Ike. I've had the pleasure to interview many former pows held by US forces. Most of them had been so badly abused that after the war they came back and became US citizens. [:D]
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RE: a small question

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: vettim89

ORIGINAL: Termite2

ORIGINAL: vettim89

It is very easy to pass judgments on the conduct of any war through the scope of hindsight and cultural bias. As a general rule, the actions of the victors in any war are regarded as heroic and the actions of the losers are barbaric/criminal. There is a saying that the winners of wars get to write the history. I am not saying the Japanese did not act brutally in WWII, but that the Allies did too because war is not a pretty business.

We can look at the Rape of Nanking with disgust and horror knowing that a quarter million Chinese were raped and slaughtered at the hands of the IJA. However, the military reason was to show the Chinese what they were up against and force them to capitulate or at least agree to the terms of a Japanese designed cease fire. The USAAF incinerated 100,000 Japanese most of whom were Civilians at Hiroshima. The reason was to show the Japanese what they were up against and force them to capitulate.

I am not trying to argue for or against the A-Bomb; merely pointing out that one side's brutality is another side's necessary action for prosecuting the war.

Yes, the Japanese horribly mistreated their POW's. Yet that was not an indication of some inherent flaw within the Japanese race, but instead an outflow of the Japanese Warrior Code. Culturally, there was no greater dishonor than for a warrior to surrender. They felt that those that did surrender had disgraced themselves, their family, their ancestors, and their country. In the Japanese view, they had every right to treat their POW's the way they did because they saw them as having forfeited any rights by surrendering. I am not saying it is morally right that the POW's were treated that way just that the Japanese did not view it as wrong at the time.

I guess the point is that a certain moral relativism exists when we look at the history of wars. I doubt the residents of Hamburg, Dresden, Osaka, Tokyo, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki had any better view of the Allies than the Allies had of the Japanese and Germans.

War is hell. It is a brutal, ugly, awful business.


I have often read this; the problem I have with this opinion is the Japanese treatment of German POW's in WW1; wouldn't the Japanese have treated the prisoners the same if this was their cultural bias?

No. The Japanese culture changed significantly with the rise of ultranationalism and militarism. This was imbued into students as they went through the educational system and was part of their daily culture (press, politics, etc). The attitudes of the Japanese changed a lot in these years especially the attitudes of their leaders. Again, the point not being whether it was right or wrong on a morally neutral basis but whether the individuals committing these acts thought they were acting immorally. The world had its fair share of truly evil SOB's in the war: Hitler, Goebels, Hess, Stalin, etc. My point is the average Japanese foot soldier probably did not have any moral twinges about forcing POW's into slave labor.
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Ike99
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RE: a small question

Post by Ike99 »

That is not correct. The Japanese Bushido tradition required that ANY person who surrenders be treated humanely.

Excellant points Mdiehl. I would only counter that Bushido had been bastardized by the time of the outbreak of WWII.

I think this is right.
¨It is agreeable with Bushido to treat the enemy braves leniently, and it is necessary for us, as a great nation, to demonstrate our behaviour on behalf of our national pride.¨- Japanese POW bureau conference. 1916

Bushido has nothing for torturing and executing civilians or prisoners. It would be comparable to Chivalry for Europe. It would not be an honorable thing for warriors to go and massacre a village of civilians. However if you make the enemy in propaganda to not be human with ferverent nationalism, then you will have terrible brutality to each other.

War without Mercy by John Dower is a good book on this subject.
Mutual racism was a major dynamic in the way Japan and the United States engaged each other during World War II. Americans and Japanese both considered the other inferior. Historical treatments of World War II have suffered due to extreme patriotism, persisting racial stereotypes, and historical amnesia. America and Japan have a reciprocal agreement about historical amnesia concerning their common histories as well as Japan’s history with China. In War Without Mercy John Dower looks at American and Japanese racist propaganda in the form of films, music, cartoons, and pseudoscientific studies. Americans depicted Japanese as apes, octopi, bats, rats, rapists, and midgets. Japanese depicted Americans as cannibals, demons, criminals, little Napoleons, and dandruff. The racism on both sides led to atrocious behaviors, for example, Japanese soldiers who beheaded unarmed captured Americans; American soldiers who slit the throats of Japanese who were trying to surrender.
Death is death and it is naive or irrational to claim that the two WWII uses of the atomic bomb was somehow "worse" than other means of inflicting casualties.

The problem with the atomic weapons Canoerebel is the indiscriminate way they kill. You cannot target a factory, a airfield, etc. with a atomic bomb. It is the entire population or nothing. The same could be said of the incendiary attacks but I think even these were directed towards industrial sections of cities producing armaments and the fires would spread out of control. But the intended target was a military target.

Yes, death is death, so one could have also taken the position poison gas kills the same as bombs so lets drop poision gas on all Japanese cities. However I think it is the nature of these weapons and the way these weapons cause indiscriminate killing that people find immoral.
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Hornblower
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RE: a small question

Post by Hornblower »

I don't seem to recall any incendents of the VC eating downed American Airmen for dinner - a'la the Japanese. 
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pasternakski
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RE: a small question

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: Ike99
The problem with the atomic weapons Canoerebel is the indiscriminate way they kill.
Strange. Those who possess them and are working feverishly to produce them seem to think of this as a supreme advantage, not a problem.
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RE: a small question

Post by pasternakski »

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Like Robin Hood once said..........."Back to the game!"
brutal ... absolutely brutal.
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RE: a small question

Post by decaro »

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Were the Japanese more brutal than the Vietnamese soldiers? (I mean charlie)

Not that this is an excuse for inhuman behavior, but did either of these people's govt's sign-on to the Geneva Convention? I'm very certain that the Japanese didn't.
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RE: a small question

Post by DuckofTindalos »

Irrelevant.
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RE: a small question

Post by AW1Steve »

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Were the Japanese more brutal than the Vietnamese soldiers? (I mean charlie)

Not that this is an excuse for inhuman behavior, but did either of these people's govt's sign-on to the Geneva Convention? I'm very certain that the Japanese didn't.

I'm pretty sure they did.[:)] I stand corrected. Japan did not sign the Geneva accord of 1929 (convention for the treatment of prisoners). [8|]
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RE: a small question

Post by Japan »

I see it like this:


In war you can have no rules, it's that simple.
If you try to create rules of war, they will not last longer then to when yourself need to brake them for a military or political important reason.

So, in my book Everything is Fair play, use Nuclear Bombs, Deliberate Civilian Bombing, 9/11 styled Terrorism Attacks, or whatever you like, it is all the same, it is war and killing,
and war you fight with the tools, organisation and equipment you have, sometimes you have afford the luxury of morale and ethics, but sometimes you don't.

In my humble opinion this counts for everyone, regardless of the current "official" policy of your faction or nation, if it is necessary for your cause then the casualty amount and type of casualty is irrelevant.
This have been proven through our history over and over again, we are very good at dudging everyone other then ourselfs.

There is no good side in war, that is just poor propaganda, there may be incidents that you feel makes war legitimate, and for that reason you can consider yourself good or bad or whatever, but that applies to both sides. So, when someone attack you, you should not cry out, he might have considered that he had a legitimate reason...

So, War is just that, killing and destruction, their is no honor in war, no glory and no heroes, no Allah-h and no virgins.
Those factors are just there to encourage you to actually go to war if someone else consider that it is necessary, or legitimate to them.

You are born with the 'sworn allegiance', and if you refuse you go to prison or get shot, depending on were you live and your nation or factions current situation.
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RE: a small question

Post by DuckofTindalos »

Oh bravo... Clap... Clap... Clap...[8|]
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AW1Steve
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RE: a small question

Post by AW1Steve »

Probably doen't belive in "house rules" either.[:D]
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RE: a small question

Post by Japan »

---


In realty "Rules of War" it a totally worthless thing, if we need to kill 100 Million People for whatever reason, and if it to us seems legitimate... well, then we will do it, have no doubt!
Burn babies... burn! If we must, then they will die. Our history proves this over and over.. from the Roman Empire and until today.
If we feel we have legitimate reasons then we will use the Force we like.

During WW2 we feelt we had to kill millions of civilians so we did... and if we had to do it again then we would...
Today, in our current situation, we have afford Morale and Ethic's, in WW2 we did not.

Morale and Ethic is a Luxury that we currently have afford, our enemy's however probably don't afford it!
So, shall we blame him for fighting with what he has ?


We should not discuss right and wrong, those are factors that we create in our minds, in our values.
We can not say that someone else is doing right or wrong, we can only say that they do not obey our values, and for that reason it seems wrong to us. If it is wrong enough to us, then we can feel that we have a legitimate reason to go to war, ok fair enough... But never forget that it goes both ways, I.e many people think that our way of living is the wrong one, and some of them might want to go to war with us due to that, so war is war, there is just no more to it than that.






ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Warts and all - instances of abuse and all - the Allies WERE the good guys in World War II.



We are not the good side, we are only the good side if seen from our values and perspectives.
Neighter are the enemy the good side, they are only the good side when seen from their values and perspectives.
There is simply no "correct" answer. We are just what we are, and we will use the force we want to and are able to, if we feel it is necessary.

Who are we to claim that our values are the correct one's ?, they are correct to us, and that is why we say who that is the good and who that is the bad.
This applies to all sides, regardless of culture, values, religion ect, it is simply just how it is, and it is the reason to why you think that we are the good and they the bad.




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RE: a small question

Post by vettim89 »

War is a bad thing. It involves killing people and destroying countries. That said sometimes good things come from it. Certainly the acts of heroism and self-sacrifice by those involved can inspire those of us who learn of their deeds. Sometimes it can bring together parties that would not have considered an alliance if not for their common enemy. Lastly, the horrors of war will hopefully convince all those involved of the futility of pursueing another war in the future.

The Allies in WWII were victims of wars of aggression on two fronts. The did not attack either the Japanese nor the Germans. Neville Chamberlain is much reviled in most history texts for being naive and appeasing Hitler. Yet the man was just trying to avoid another war; one which made the horrors of the FIrst World War pale in comparison. Yes, Chamberlain was naive in thinking that Hiteler could be appeased but maybe we should at least applaud him for trying.

As to the Allies being the "Good Guys", some of that is largely a matter of perspective but I would say that the Allies at least tried to conduct the war as morally as a war can be fought. Yes, they did fail in a number of circumstances. War will do that to you. It will force you into a position where what you once thought was morally irrehensible now becomes your only choice. As to the Germans and Japanese, no one can make a valid case that they in any way cared about the effects of their aggression on their enemies, their civilian populace, nor their own troops.
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RE: a small question

Post by borner »

Don't be talkin bad about Texas now [:-]
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