AE, the real game (YH v TS mk IX)

[TheElf]

Shoot, and I was about to send my 'concur' email to Joe stating the air team was ready for GOLD...

[CV Zuikaku]

Thanks for such an informative answer, YH [&o]
I hope they'll fix that training command to work properly- it's a very, very handy feature vhere player can decide wheather to use his top pilots in combat until death, or to use them to help train fresh pilots! [&o]

[Grotius]

So the IJN pilots in the "trained" pool all have XP of 35? No more "free" high-XP pilots at all, right? In stock, for example, we get about 10 65-ish pilots a month.

That's OK with me -- I assume we now have to train everyone on the map. I gather that supply runs won't work for fighter pilots. What are you doing to train your new pilots on-map, YH?

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

So the IJN pilots in the "trained" pool all have XP of 35? No more "free" high-XP pilots at all, right? In stock, for example, we get about 10 65-ish pilots a month.

That's OK with me -- I assume we now have to train everyone on the map. I gather that supply runs won't work for fighter pilots. What are you doing to train your new pilots on-map, YH?

Well the few that arent in combat (the Japs start with about half as many combat squadrons as in WitP) I simply put them on training missions. This unit for example has been "training" for about 10 days:



I reported how fast the training mission was a few months back and it was ignored, so I have to assume that its working as designed. A few of these pilots gained 30 points in air to air combat in 10 days. Their defense still sucks, but once they get into Tojos (or even Oscars), they will make their weight felt.

[Yamato hugger]

Tree actually sent me a turn. Nothing of note to report other than Manila fell to the 33rd div and one of my APD groups heading south on the west side of Borneo was shot up and sunk. Nells and Bettys continued to hammer the Repulse and PoW in Singapore. I just got an air HQ to Kota Bharu this turn, so hopefully they will start carrying torps on these runs now. I also reloaded my 5 midget sub carriers and they are now enroute to the area. One of my BB divisions just arrived at Kuching to put an end to his CL harassments. Landings on Ambon also. The KB is finally rearmed and awaiting marshalling forces at Truk. I have 2 divisions at sea near Guam, 1 south of Tokyo, and 1 near Yap. These forces will sail as a unit and sweep over eastern New Guinea (including Moresby) supported by 8 carriers adn a BB division. I intend to take out New Caledonia and Fiji while Im at it.

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Heres a handy workaround I have found:

You will see that I just entered Alor Star with 3 units. The NE hexside is red (Jap controlled) while the east and SE are green (other guy controlled). I give the artillery and the armor unit orders to move to the next base (Georgetown) while the remaining infantry unit goes combat mode and will attack the base.

"But you cant move to the next base because of the green hexside" you AFBs cry! This is true, the units ordered to move are moving to the north east (you can see the little movement direction indicator on the unit), but worry not JFBs, after you take the base, NEXT turn all those hex sides will be red, and although the units will still be heading NE, when you re-order them to move to Georgetown, they will point south east like they should and the miles they went THIS turn doesnt re-set. So you are basically getting a "free move". The armor unit will probably move about 15 miles. So you can seriously speed up your advance if the allied player does a "Sir Robin" on you like this.

I've given this a lot of thought, and YH is describing a feature, not a bug. Keep in mind that the whole idea of hexes is arbitrary, and is just a means for the game to track unit locations and such. And 40 miles is a pretty big area, so a lot could be going on there, if it were RL instead of a game abstraction.

Forget for a moment that it sounds crazy that a unit moving 10 miles N could suddenly turn that into 10 miles S. Think of it as an ABSTRACTION FOR SOMETHING ELSE. If this were real life and I had enough forces to attack AND to maintain a ready reserve to exploit the results of that attack (in game terms, the reserve would be the group moving N), then it makes a great deal of sense that if the enemy retreats, my attacking force would be slowed down by the need to replenish ammo and other supplies, while my reserve would not! They are ready to go, and nothing should stop them from following hot on the heels of the retreating force.

For this tactic to work, the attacker has to have enough forces to win the battle and evict the enemy. If they don't retreat, then the tactic won't work, and maybe you would have been better off using the reserve in the battle. So the tactic isn't without risk. And even if there is no battle, but one side retreats before an attack can be launched, isn't it more crazy that the enemy wouldn't have noticed and wouldn't at least have the POSSIBILTY to send some forces in hot pursuit?

There's more than enough to do in WitP, so there's no way I'd routinely be using this tactic, but in the right place and at the right time, it would absolutely replicate the full effect of a disintegrating front line and an enemy that never leaves you alone.

This is definitely a feature.

[Yamato hugger]

Actually the tactic works just fine as well in WitP. Always has. But people seem to forget the minor detail that a unit cant move and attack at the same time, so those people I think erroneously think that not only are units attacking, but moving at the same time and this is where they have a problem with it, as would I if that were the case. But it isnt. You either attack OR move, not both.

In WitP you cant move from an enemy occupied hex to an enemy occupied or contested hex, but as long as the hex you are moving to is friendly controlled or not controlled by either player (in other words, when you hit "W" there is no "J" in the hex if you are allied or "A" in the hex if you are Jap) then the move is allowed.

AE is different in that regard that enemy control of a hex is meaningless, or almost so. Its the HEXSIDES that count. You CAN move from an enemy occupied hex to another enemy occupied hex (even an enemy controlled base to an enemy controlled base as I will show) as long as you control the hexsides between them. I will give you several examples (that may make your head hurt [:D]) In the first 3 following examples, let us assume that both Clark and Manila are allied controlled and both are Japanese occupied (meaning both allied and Jap units in the hexes). Note, Im not saying either situation 2 or 3 could ever occur but showing how movement works. (picture below for 1, 2, and 3 - Termmy taught me how to draw, so dont blame me. C is Clark, M is Manila, and the lines are who controls the hexsides between them).

Example 1) The hexsides between them are allied controlled (in other words, no Jap units moved between the 2 in either direction). Allied units can move freely between the 2 hexes in either direction, the Japs can not move direct between them in either direction. This would be the normal situation as long as neither of them fell to the Jap.

Example 2) The Japs had taken Manila and moved into Clark from there. The allies re-take Manila and the Japs move back into Manila from another hex (but not from Clark). So both bases are allied controlled, and both are Japanese occupied but the hexside in Clark that borders Manila (the SE one) is Jap controlled (because Jap units moved in from that hex and thus were the last to pass through this hexside) but the NW hexside in Manila (the one bordering Clark) is allied controlled (because when you take a hex and force all the defenders out you get control of all the hexsides in that hex). So now what can happen is Jap units can move FROM Clark TO Manila, but the Jap units in Manila can NOT move to Clark. The reverse is true of the allies. The allied units in Manila could move to Clark (because they control that hexside in the Manila hex) but could NOT move from Clark to Manila (because that hexside in the Clark hex is Jap controlled). Head hurt yet? Theres more [:D]

Example 3) Same situation as above. But now IF the Japs move from Clark to Manila they would then control the Manila NW hexside because they were the last to move through this hexside. So in this situation you have both Manila AND Clark allied controlled and occupied, but only Jap units could move between the 2. Your head hurt yet? More coming [:D]

Edit: Each hex has its own hexsides for control purposes. So in reality each hexside between 2 hexes has 2 hexsides: hex A || hex B so here 1 player can control the east hexside of hex A while the other controls the west hexside of hex B.

Example 4) A Jap unit and an allied unit both enter a non-base hex that was vacant last turn (so neither side controlled any hexsides in it last turn). Since both sides moved in on the same turn, the Jap controls the hexside they moved in from, the allies control the hexside they came in from, and neither player controls the rest. So in this situation, either side could move to any adjacent hex EXCEPT the one the enemy moved in from.

Example 5) As in 4, only now both are moving to the same hex. Let us say the allied entered from the west, and the Japs from the east, and both move NW from there (neither stops to fight). I have never tested this (maybe I should) but what I THINK would happen is they would both move into the next hex and after doing so all hexsides would be uncontrolled except the one they both came from which would be Jap controlled (because the allies move first). Now its possible that since the allies would be leaving hex A first, they would get control of the NW hexside before the Jap movement which would block the Japs move, but like I said, I should test that.

Now supply is another matter, and frankly, it drives me crazy. Since you only "control" the hex you are physically in at the moment and no one controls any hexsides of unoccupied hexes, its actually possible for both sides to use the same rail line supplying their forces (or road, or whatever supply path).

In the attached pic, if you imagine that hexes 1 and 2 are unoccupied then the Chinese and Japs can both trace supply along this same rail line in the same turn because neither side controls any of the hexsides along it (shown by colored arrows).

In the base hex on the north, if the Chinese controlled the SW hexside, their supply could move through that hexside, but their control of that hexside doesnt stop the supply from coming INTO that hex.

So the general rule of thumb is this: hexside control only stops movement FROM that hex through that hexside. It does NOT stop movement from another hex INTO that one. It takes a while to adjust your mind to this, but its actually a nice concept for unit movement but I personally have reservations on the supply movement (my own opinion).

[tigercub]

I was in great fear for the Japs when you said there was about half as many a combat squadrons as in WitP but when you showed how quick they can train in there combat groups [:D]i was at ease again.

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Grotius

So the IJN pilots in the "trained" pool all have XP of 35? No more "free" high-XP pilots at all, right? In stock, for example, we get about 10 65-ish pilots a month.

That's OK with me -- I assume we now have to train everyone on the map. I gather that supply runs won't work for fighter pilots. What are you doing to train your new pilots on-map, YH?

Well the few that arent in combat (the Japs start with about half as many combat squadrons as in WitP) I simply put them on training missions. This unit for example has been "training" for about 10 days:



I reported how fast the training mission was a few months back and it was ignored, so I have to assume that its working as designed. A few of these pilots gained 30 points in air to air combat in 10 days. Their defense still sucks, but once they get into Tojos (or even Oscars), they will make their weight felt.

[Yamato hugger]

Well, Im still trying to figure a quick and easy way to get their raw experience up because seemingly only the lowest guys train.

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Shoot, and I was about to send my 'concur' email to Joe stating the air team was ready for GOLD...

Damn, funny how no-one noticed your brilliant and noble effort about that GOLD thing.

[tigercub]

it is nice but he is only one of the slaves!working toward that GOLD thing!

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Actually the tactic works just fine as well in WitP. Always has. But people seem to forget the minor detail that a unit cant move and attack at the same time, so those people I think erroneously think that not only are units attacking, but moving at the same time and this is where they have a problem with it, as would I if that were the case. But it isnt. You either attack OR move, not both.

Exactly. That is why it makes sense.

Now supply is another matter, and frankly, it drives me crazy. Since you only "control" the hex you are physically in at the moment and no one controls any hexsides of unoccupied hexes, its actually possible for both sides to use the same rail line supplying their forces (or road, or whatever supply path).

In the attached pic, if you imagine that hexes 1 and 2 are unoccupied then the Chinese and Japs can both trace supply along this same rail line in the same turn because neither side controls any of the hexsides along it (shown by colored arrows).

In the base hex on the north, if the Chinese controlled the SW hexside, their supply could move through that hexside, but their control of that hexside doesnt stop the supply from coming INTO that hex.

So the general rule of thumb is this: hexside control only stops movement FROM that hex through that hexside. It does NOT stop movement from another hex INTO that one. It takes a while to adjust your mind to this, but its actually a nice concept for unit movement but I personally have reservations on the supply movement (my own opinion).

Good explanations on the "Hexside Control" features. As for supply, the example you showed SHOULD work, and China is the perfect example. For the most part there weren't "fronts" per se in China, and the idea that both sides could get supply from the same road makes sense given that neither side is expending troops to control the road. In this context, supply is not just the movement of ammunition, but also foodstuffs moving via conventional civilian means. As for the "warstuffs", I'm pretty sure it didn't move by way of these huge truck convoys we visualize when somebody says "supply". Probably ox-drawn carts at best, and most frequently porters. Besides, WitP worked exactly the same way.

[Yamato hugger]

Well, I wont get into a debate on it until after its GOLD other than to say trains using the same tracks to deliver supplies to different sides just doesnt sit well with me [;)]

[Yamato hugger]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Shoot, and I was about to send my 'concur' email to Joe stating the air team was ready for GOLD...

Damn, funny how no-one noticed your brilliant and noble effort about that GOLD thing.

We could have gone gold years ago if you dont care about that little "making it work" thingie [:D]

[Fishbed]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Shoot, and I was about to send my 'concur' email to Joe stating the air team was ready for GOLD...

Damn, funny how no-one noticed your brilliant and noble effort about that GOLD thing.

We could have gone gold years ago if you dont care about that little "making it work" thingie [:D]

I just mean that, well, people all around here are shouting all day long about the release date ("can I have it for Midway anniversary?", "can I have it for my uncle's birthday?", "can I have it for the day after the prom?") and well for once someone releases something about it, no-one cares. History is a bitch to anonymous heroes [:D] [;)]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Grotius

So the IJN pilots in the "trained" pool all have XP of 35? No more "free" high-XP pilots at all, right? In stock, for example, we get about 10 65-ish pilots a month.

That's OK with me -- I assume we now have to train everyone on the map. I gather that supply runs won't work for fighter pilots. What are you doing to train your new pilots on-map, YH?

Well the few that arent in combat (the Japs start with about half as many combat squadrons as in WitP) I simply put them on training missions. This unit for example has been "training" for about 10 days:



I reported how fast the training mission was a few months back and it was ignored, so I have to assume that its working as designed. A few of these pilots gained 30 points in air to air combat in 10 days. Their defense still sucks, but once they get into Tojos (or even Oscars), they will make their weight felt.

30 points in 10 days??? [X(] I don´t want to bring in negative waves again, but seriously, then even the WITP standard training of bombing an empty base works better because it takes usually 2,5 months to get from 40-70 exp.

[Dili]

30 points in 10 days??? I don´t want to bring in negative waves again, but seriously, then even the WITP standard training of bombing an empty base works better because it takes usually 2,5 months to get from 40-70 exp.

Amen!

[tigercub]

but as you can see its only training one of 12 lists that can be inproved a pond so not that big of a deal.  

[Splinterhead]

ORIGINAL: tigercub

but as you can see its only training one of 12 lists that can be unproved a pond so not that big of a deal.  

Yeah... Just look art those Nate pilots low transport ratings! [8|]

[tigercub]

It must be remembered they have 12 months training before getting into a combat plane.(but if it keeps going up at that rate it would be to high)

Tiger!