When?

[lomyrin]

CWiF was never fully completed and still has some bugs and rules errors in it. It also was to a now obsolete rule edition and does not have many of the newer counters. It is quite playable and stable witin those limitations.
 
Lars

[yvesp]

ORIGINAL: bo
Hi Steve is CWIF a computer game of WIF? And if so why would ADG want another company to compete against like Matrix?

Willy

The most compelling reason is that CWIF was a product that was never finished.
And the current product actually inherited it, so Steve did not begin from scratch (IMHO, a mixed blessing)
I used to do some small beta (alpha rather) tests at that time.
The only thing you could do with it was move counters around IIRC.

BTW, I still have it somewhere on one of my computers...

Yves

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: yvesp

ORIGINAL: bo
Hi Steve is CWIF a computer game of WIF? And if so why would ADG want another company to compete against like Matrix?

Willy

The most compelling reason is that CWIF was a product that was never finished.
And the current product actually inherited it, so Steve did not begin from scratch (IMHO, a mixed blessing)
I used to do some small beta (alpha rather) tests at that time.
The only thing you could do with it was move counters around IIRC.

BTW, I still have it somewhere on one of my computers...

Yves

Yeah, a mixed blessing.[:)][:@]

[MajorDude]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

To be perfectly right I am waiting for this game since 1999...

... that's when CWiF started... then it become MWiF... and we waited again... now it is due in 3 to 6 month and guess what ? we will still wait...

But, just a question, will the CWiF beta tester be credited in MWiF ?

Hi Greywolf, 1999? Did someone attempt to do this game on a computer in 1999?

Willy

Working for Australian Design Group, Chris Marinacci worked on putting this on the computer for 7 years starting in 1996. I inherited his 100,000 lines of code when I was hired in July 2005. There are now more than 300,000 lines of code. To differentiate Chris' work from what I have done, I refer to the former as CWIF and the latter as MWIF.

CWIF is a commercial product in its own right and can be purchased from ADG.

Thanks! [:)]

edit:

I found it at:

http://www.a-d-g.com.au/

"...All purchasers of the marinacci edition will receive a $5 discount on all orders of the Matrix version of World in Flames purchased via the ADG web site.

After your order has been processed, you will be e-mailed the FTP site and password to allow downloading of the game.


Price: $15.00 US, $20.00 AU..."


Even though it is an older rules set, etc., it will help for dealing with the extended 'gestation' period - lol [:'(]


Let us know if you need help with the testing. [:)]

[Anendrue]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: bo



Hi Greywolf, 1999? Did someone attempt to do this game on a computer in 1999?

Willy

Working for Australian Design Group, Chris Marinacci worked on putting this on the computer for 7 years starting in 1996. I inherited his 100,000 lines of code when I was hired in July 2005. There are now more than 300,000 lines of code. To differentiate Chris' work from what I have done, I refer to the former as CWIF and the latter as MWIF. CWIF is a commercial product in its own right and can be purchased from ADG.

Hi Steve is CWIF a computer game of WIF? And if so why would ADG want another company to compete against like Matrix?

Willy

Just because someone beta tested CWiF does not mean they should be credited for beta testing MWiF. As stated, Steve inherited 100,000 lines of code and now has 300,000 but most of the original 100,000 lines have been rewritten and/or improved. MWiF is its own game in its own right. It is valid to say MWiF is a derivative of CWiF. However; it is not CWiF finished, it is MWiF!

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

Please take this post as it is intended... an open discussion of the benefits vs constraints of hex based wargames on personal computers.

Yup, that's why they call it a discussion forum. Who wants to preach to the choir, excepting someone who's finds validation in chanting the local dogma?

Let's take a look at these points of yours regarding hotseat play:

No Lighting Problems [8D]

Actually "lighting" is a pretty serious issue with computer games, as excessive focus on a monitor can lead to neurological problems. A friend of mine who used to code for Warbirds was forced into disability retirement because of monitor-related seizures that he began to experience.

But, my real issue with wargame GUI is real estate, or lack thereof. I want to see the whole map, and I don't want to mouse around to do so. This can be partially remedied with a big-honking monitor, and half-dozen, or so, zoom levels, but this typically requires additional art. And you know how loathe developers are to suffer the additional cost.

No Kids, Cats, Dogs, etc. jostling counters [:(]

Honestly, now, have you never had the experience of a pet, usually a cat, strolling across your keyboard, incidentally depressing a key or keys while doing so, and nuking your progress in a game?

No need for a special cabinet, closed room, or sacred area when ending a playing session

About three decades ago, I made my last territorial demand of my wife. That of course was my war-room. Today, the sacred area also houses my collection of computers. While they are equally sacred to my boardgames, they are no less vulnerable to the unintended vandalism of cats, dogs and other ostensibly rug-bound mammals.

No more frantic 'HONEY, HAVE YOU SEEN MY GAMING TWEEZERS? THEY WERE RIGHT HERE LAST WEEK'

The above suggests that you've never shared your gaming PC with a spouse. Lucky man. [;)]

No making sure the dining room table will be available for 12 hours on Saturday

Construction of the sort of facility that I make reference to, several points up your list, runs about $100 per square foot, complete with water closet. No wargamer should be without one, and your family can have the table back. This sort of arrangement has saved more than one marriage, and perhaps a life or two.

[*] No concerns about stack strength if your opponent adds faster than you can (or even faster than they can[:-]
[*] No counting out loud slowly when figuring stack strength if your opponent counts slower than you do [>:]
[*] Ability to have multiple games with multiple opponents concurrently
[*] Fewer disputes about rules ... the computer is the final arbiter
[*] No accidentally using the same unit in multiple attacks.
[*] No forgetting weather modifiers
[*] No forgetting other modifiers
[*] No wondering if randomly drawing good counters is coincidence or enemy action
[*] No angst over concern that your lucky draws are being considered possible enemy action
[*] No wondering if your opponent's 'lucky' die should have an 'accident' [X(]
[*] No 'accidentally' bumping the table and getting better attack opportunities as no one is really quite sure which hex that short range bomber was in
[*] No more finding the 'Yamato' under the couch and realizing why you have not won a single naval engagement

I'm gonna lump the rest of the items above into an unbrella category, call it "stuff that can go wrong, accidentally, or otherwise."

While I readily acknowledge your concerns in each and every instance, I have to remind you that stuff can go wrong in a hotseat situation as well. A careless key stroke, a beverage spilled on a keyboard or down the front of a computer case, or something as commonplace as a power outage, all of which can spell finis for your night's gaming.

And who can deny that the PC is a constant headache for many, many wargamers. The loss of a hard-drive or other component, or software related issues, spyware for instance, can be as genuinely vexing to your average grog as anything that you cite above.

Benefits of playing Net Play using some kind of voice over IP application (such as Team Speak)

• No travel time ... more play time
• Makes it more convenient to play for that 1 hour you can both overlap between other obligations
• You can still hear your opponent squeal, grumble, curse as you make the killing move.
• Still quite a bit of social contact
• You don't have to buy chips and drinks for everyone
• You can play against the opponent with no social graces (or hygiene) that your wife does not want in her house and whose house you do not want to go to
• You can play with anyone in the world.

I can't take issue with any of the points above. I'd just PREFER to do it in person, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. Barring that possibility, folks who want to play this style of game are going to benefit from a computer and internet connection.

Benefits of playing PBEM over and above NetPlay

• You can play your turn when it suits you
• More opportunities to ponder your next move during your daily work commute
• Better play as you have much less time pressure to finish your move 'so we can get this turn done before I have to go'
• In the case where you can only arrange to meet rarely, you *may* actually make more game progress in any given month

Once again, your thoughts in all these regards appear sound. I'd note that several posters in this thread have made it apparent that they don't have time for pre-scheduled, extended gaming sessions. Assuming that they don't know any WiF players locally, its about their only option for human vs human play.

Benefits of playing AI (even if the AI is not going to win at WIFCON)

• Work on your counter strategies... seeing the AI react will either teach you what to do or what not to do
• Work on your strategies to pull off a large scale invasion (land or sea)
• Get more familiar with the timing needed to to accomplish long term preparations (This can be a multi year process)
• When someone accuses you of masturbation, you can say 'Yes, but only intellectually' (ITS A JOKE!) [:D]
• New players can, at least, play in the shallow end of the pool until they feel comfortable playing with the experienced players --- No one likes getting their A$$ kicked and not have any idea why after the fact.

An AI opponent can prove to be a worthwhile tutor of sorts in learning the game. However, assuming that the human player actually knows and understands "the rules" under which software operates, and that the software is itself sound in that regard, then there's no reason that one can't play with himself, hotseat, your reference to solitary vice, duly noted. [;)]

There are clearly downsides to everything.

These, I feel, are some compelling reasons to want this product even if you have never enjoyed playing a hex based computer wargame.

This is why I am looking forward to this game.

Thoughts??

I'm thinking that the success or failure of WiF is dependent on the degree to which it's embraced by people who are familiar with the boardgame. If it's faithful to its antecedent, it'll likely do okay. If it fails in that regard, I'm afraid that it'll prove to be one monumental waste of time on some poor unfortunate's part, regardless of one's mode of play, or the relative quality of its AI.

Thanks for asking,[:)]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

To be perfectly right I am waiting for this game since 1999...

... that's when CWiF started... then it become MWiF... and we waited again... now it is due in 3 to 6 month and guess what ? we will still wait...

But, just a question, will the CWiF beta tester be credited in MWiF ?

Yes. The MWIF contributors are listed separately and some names appear in both lists.

[Jagdtiger14]

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

ORIGINAL: bo

No AI no sale is a statement of fact not a threat.

Do you not enjoy playing against humans? [:)]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

As a matter of fact, no I dont.

Except in cooperative games I find that playing against humans had a nasty competitive aftertaste to the game that I dislike. When playing with my brother we usually share the control of each side to lessen the confrontation part.

Humans tend to be not reliable and suffer displeasant emotionnal burst when confronted with extreme statistical results (favorable or not), they usually contest a lot of the rules and are prone to bail out of a game when losing or grumble or cheer and taunt when winning.

They are usually not avaliable to play when you have a few minuts avaliable, late at night or at lunch break.

There are humans I like to play with, those I know well, with whom I can freely speak and have a drink and laugh while pushing carboard counters around a map. Thoses are not on the internet, they are in real life...
[/quote]

Are you friggen kidding me??? The competition is the only reason I am interested in playing wargames. I love the confrontations, seeing the emotional outbursts(I contain mine), seeing the true character come out of a person. The part I dont like is the bailing part, unless its a total freak out - melt down right there in the middle of the game!;-) Cheering is cool...like ahhh...in sports? Taunting can be very funny, although I dont do it myself. WiF during lunch break???...for a few min's? Have you ever played WiF?...it seems many on this board have not. The great thing about PBEM is that you can respond when you have time.

[Sewerlobster]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
Conversely, I really have to question why someone would PREFER playing a computer over a human.
PoE (aka ivanmoe)

I don't know that prefer is the right word. I know that I will be unable to play MWiF against people because I will not be able to make timely returns of turns and decisions. My gaming life is sporadic and the gaps between turns would not sit well with most strangers. I have tried PBEM with Matrix's "Guns of August" which is much simpler and faster than MWiF. While I have completed a game, I also have had the dual misfortune of being 'dropped' because my opponent had lost interest in our game because of the long delays and having simply been abandoned and ignored in the middle of a great, competitive and timely returned game. I have little enough time to fufill my gaming obligations, and absolutely no time for others to squander mine.

AIO and solitaire are at my pace and immediately gratifying. And who doesn't love immediate gratification?

<edit: some day I will learn to spell my native language. today was not that day>

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
Conversely, I really have to question why someone would PREFER playing a computer over a human.
PoE (aka ivanmoe)

I don't know that prefer is the right word. I know that I will be unable to play MWiF against people because I will not be able to make timely returns of turns and decisions. My gaming life is sporadic and the gaps between turns would not sit well with most strangers. I have tried PBEM with Matrix's "Guns of August" which is much simpler and faster than MWiF. While I have completed a game, I also have had the dual misfortune of being 'dropped' because my opponent had lost interest in our game because of the long delays and having simply been abandoned and ignored in the middle of a great, competitive and timely returned game. I have little enough time to fufill my gaming obligations, and absolutely no time for others to squander mine.

AIO and solitaire are at my pace and immediately gratifying. And who doesn't love immediate gratification?

<edit: some day I will learn to spell my native language. today was not that day>

With the number of folks posting this same sentiment, there ought to be a facility for you all to meet, get together, and play the game PBEM.

[Grapeshot Bob]

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish
And who doesn't love immediate gratification?

Yes. The computer does have advantages.

And no one can see you are naked like they can in FTF.



GSB

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

My editing is liable to get messy, so I apologize in advance if I screw it up.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Actually "lighting" is a pretty serious issue with computer games, as excessive focus on a monitor can lead to neurological problems. A friend of mine who used to code for Warbirds was forced into disability retirement because of monitor-related seizures that he began to experience.

Ouch!! Bad!! I may be doomed --- 8 hours at work and at least 4 at home + weekends...

Seriously, the new LCD (and LED) monitors with faster refresh rates should help. However I do have sympathy for those with that problem.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

But, my real issue with wargame GUI is real estate, or lack thereof.

It is true that this is a downside. But an extra monitor (if your video card will support it) goes a long way to helping.

Also, there are likely to be quick, handy dandy keystrokes that let you move different windows to the front of the screen. With time, this can become second nature.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Honestly, now, have you never had the experience of a pet, usually a cat, strolling across your keyboard, incidentally depressing a key or keys while doing so, and nuking your progress in a game?

I can honestly say that has never happened. I find a keyboard to be much easier to defend than 3 tables.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

About three decades ago, I made my last territorial demand of my wife. That of course was my war-room. Today, the sacred area also houses my collection of computers. While they are equally sacred to my boardgames, they are no less vulnerable to the unintended vandalism of cats, dogs and other ostensibly rug-bound mammals.

Funny you should say that... During our prenuptual discussions, we negotiated that the dining room table was mine for gaming whenever I wanted it. (I put that one in for others). However, she got the second bedroom and I think I should have negotated harder. [&:]

No more frantic 'HONEY, HAVE YOU SEEN MY GAMING TWEEZERS? THEY WERE RIGHT HERE LAST WEEK'

Oh, by the way, being able to play this game without tweezers is a big plus for me. Any game where the counter has a different meaning upside down becomes tough when the stacks also get high.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

The above suggests that you've never shared your gaming PC with a spouse. Lucky man. [;)]

I have made it a priority that she has her own gaming machine. It is great for when she and I play Civ or Colonization head to head.

Also, experience has shown that an hour of head to head Quake (or other FPS) goes a long way toward releasing marital tension that builds to cause arguments over nothing in particular.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

I'm gonna lump the rest of the items above into an unbrella category, call it "stuff that can go wrong, accidentally, or otherwise."

While I readily acknowledge your concerns in each and every instance, I have to remind you that stuff can go wrong in a hotseat situation as well. A careless key stroke, a beverage spilled on a keyboard or down the front of a computer case, or something as commonplace as a power outage, all of which can spell finis for your night's gaming.

And who can deny that the PC is a constant headache for many, many wargamers. The loss of a hard-drive or other component, or software related issues, spyware for instance, can be as genuinely vexing to your average grog as anything that you cite above.

I can't argue with most of that but lost counter(s) can be vexing as well and I still remember the guy who waited 2 years for the new release of Rune Quest only to drop a piece of pizza on his brand new rulebook the first night he had it. ARRRGH.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

I can't take issue with any of the points above. I'd just PREFER to do it in person, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. Barring that possibility, folks who want to play this style of game are going to benefit from a computer and internet connection.

And I can't argue with that. However, I have found that we almost always end a gaming session with a phone call to laugh, gloat, commiserate, etc. My experience has been that if you make the effort to communicate during and after, that it can be an advantage. When tempers flare (which happens to the best of us), things just seem to get quiet for a while.

But, I must say that I enjoy playing Bridge in person much much much more than over the computer. But the advantages that make WIF easier to play with a computer are quantum levels above those for Bridge. As with all things, it is a trade off.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

I'm thinking that the success or failure of WiF is dependent on the degree to which it's embraced by people who are familiar with the boardgame. If it's faithful to its antecedent, it'll likely do okay. If it fails in that regard, I'm afraid that it'll prove to be one monumental waste of time on some poor unfortunate's part, regardless of one's mode of play, or the relative quality of its AI.

I am conflicted about this. I see your point, but I have also seen too many games that were blasted in the forums for a bad AI. I usually check the forums before buying a game and those kind of things tend to turn me off. Maybe it is just me. But considering the likely price for this game, any bad reviews on the AI may be the nail in the coffin.

I am excited to see the experienced players contributing to the plans that the AI will follow. Any of you who are reading this, should jump in there and contribute. From Steve's progress reports, we are approaching the Now or Never point. There are several topics on this board to contribute in.

I have not played for 12 to 15 years and have declined to participate in those because I am unsure that my ideas are sound. The rules have had a major rewrite since I played and I am just not sure.

I am the eternal optimist and hope that wargaming will gain new members so I will have someone to play against when I am retired.

I think that the ability for this game to succeed in expanding the player base for WIF will be somewhat dependent upon the AI. Interested younger players

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Thanks for asking,[:)]

My pleasure... I enjoy a discussion that does not devolve into flamethrowers [;)]


One last thought....

My experience over the years (living in a town of about 25,000) is that gaming groups are small and fragmented. There seems to be a larger percentage of players that have enough negatives that you don't always want to play with them. This limits your group size.

I have had the most gaming fun in my life playing D&D in a group of 12 people (unbelievable) and Global War with a group of 5 or 6 (again lots of fun) and Diplomacy any time we could wrangle 5 to 7 people.

I love playing face to face games. It is a blast.

However, I have also noted that different gaming groups become inbred. (Don't take that wrong.) To clarify, I mean that the accepted strategies that 'must be followed to win' are wildly different between different groups. Sometimes it takes a grudge match between groups to 'teach the other guys a lesson' (or perhaps to learn one yourself).

PBEM and NetPlay have the possibility to destroy those barriers.

Again, I live in a smallish city. Most of my former gaming partners have either moved away for jobs, gotten married and hand kids, changed their priorities, etc. We don't have a local game store any longer so it is difficult to meet new players. I can honestly say that there are 2 other people in town that I know that would be interested in playing a wargame. (3 if you count my wife who is turned off by the big games.)

I guess the optimum situation would be that Computer WiF helps you meet others in your area so some of those epic weekend face to face marathons can be planned! WOOHOO, I am starting to get giddy.

However, if we have a big face to face WIF game after this is released, I will be lobbying for it to be played on the computer.

Have a great day!

Dean

[IKerensky_alt]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

ORIGINAL: PoE



Do you not enjoy playing against humans? [:)]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

As a matter of fact, no I dont.

Except in cooperative games I find that playing against humans had a nasty competitive aftertaste to the game that I dislike. When playing with my brother we usually share the control of each side to lessen the confrontation part.

Humans tend to be not reliable and suffer displeasant emotionnal burst when confronted with extreme statistical results (favorable or not), they usually contest a lot of the rules and are prone to bail out of a game when losing or grumble or cheer and taunt when winning.

They are usually not avaliable to play when you have a few minuts avaliable, late at night or at lunch break.

There are humans I like to play with, those I know well, with whom I can freely speak and have a drink and laugh while pushing carboard counters around a map. Thoses are not on the internet, they are in real life...

Are you friggen kidding me??? The competition is the only reason I am interested in playing wargames. I love the confrontations, seeing the emotional outbursts(I contain mine), seeing the true character come out of a person. The part I dont like is the bailing part, unless its a total freak out - melt down right there in the middle of the game!;-) Cheering is cool...like ahhh...in sports? Taunting can be very funny, although I dont do it myself. WiF during lunch break???...for a few min's? Have you ever played WiF?...it seems many on this board have not. The great thing about PBEM is that you can respond when you have time.

Sorry but I am a chess player at the basis, and a wargamer too but when talking about competition I usually refer to Chess...

For me taunting, commenting or cheering while playing competively is a big No-No, it is a lack of respect about your opponent and is, at very least, very impolite. When you play Chess in competition you are confronting your mental abilities against thoses of your adversaries, there is no luck, no cheat(possibly), no chance. You can have bad day or be tired but it is still your brain against his or them. That is a very personnal and intimate kind of struggle, and one where you can really push someone if you ressort to taunting, so this kind of conduct is stricly banned by the rules, you aren't even allowed any kind of comments during play. You respect your opponent and he respect you, when the game end we both shake hand and still get respect in victory or defeat.

On computer gaming it is all "In you face", "Poor Newb", "All your base are belong to us" and this kind of rif-raff wich are useless, kiddish and disrespectfull for the game and your adversaries. Not all the guys are like that, but many are, the vast majority in some game areas...

When you start a game you never know what you can expect from your opponent, there is no rating, no history and no report on his previous play : what are his capabilities ? is he nice to play with ? is he a quitter ?

I wont start a 10-60 hours game with someone that can make the experience painfull so I ressort to playing with the friend I know ( usually in hotseat or netplay ) or my good old buddy AI, wich is not the sharpest pen in the whole desk, but wich is very polite, considerate and patient and thus a very good gaming partner.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

ORIGINAL: Greywolf




As a matter of fact, no I dont.

Except in cooperative games I find that playing against humans had a nasty competitive aftertaste to the game that I dislike. When playing with my brother we usually share the control of each side to lessen the confrontation part.

Humans tend to be not reliable and suffer displeasant emotionnal burst when confronted with extreme statistical results (favorable or not), they usually contest a lot of the rules and are prone to bail out of a game when losing or grumble or cheer and taunt when winning.

They are usually not avaliable to play when you have a few minuts avaliable, late at night or at lunch break.

There are humans I like to play with, those I know well, with whom I can freely speak and have a drink and laugh while pushing carboard counters around a map. Thoses are not on the internet, they are in real life...

Are you friggen kidding me??? The competition is the only reason I am interested in playing wargames. I love the confrontations, seeing the emotional outbursts(I contain mine), seeing the true character come out of a person. The part I dont like is the bailing part, unless its a total freak out - melt down right there in the middle of the game!;-) Cheering is cool...like ahhh...in sports? Taunting can be very funny, although I dont do it myself. WiF during lunch break???...for a few min's? Have you ever played WiF?...it seems many on this board have not. The great thing about PBEM is that you can respond when you have time.

Sorry but I am a chess player at the basis, and a wargamer too but when talking about competition I usually refer to Chess...

For me taunting, commenting or cheering while playing competively is a big No-No, it is a lack of respect about your opponent and is, at very least, very impolite. When you play Chess in competition you are confronting your mental abilities against thoses of your adversaries, there is no luck, no cheat(possibly), no chance. You can have bad day or be tired but it is still your brain against his or them. That is a very personnal and intimate kind of struggle, and one where you can really push someone if you ressort to taunting, so this kind of conduct is stricly banned by the rules, you aren't even allowed any kind of comments during play. You respect your opponent and he respect you, when the game end we both shake hand and still get respect in victory or defeat.

On computer gaming it is all "In you face", "Poor Newb", "All your base are belong to us" and this kind of rif-raff wich are useless, kiddish and disrespectfull for the game and your adversaries. Not all the guys are like that, but many are, the vast majority in some game areas...

When you start a game you never know what you can expect from your opponent, there is no rating, no history and no report on his previous play : what are his capabilities ? is he nice to play with ? is he a quitter ?

I wont start a 10-60 hours game with someone that can make the experience painfull so I ressort to playing with the friend I know ( usually in hotseat or netplay ) or my good old buddy AI, wich is not the sharpest pen in the whole desk, but wich is very polite, considerate and patient and thus a very good gaming partner.

You're right about tournament chess, but speed chess has a different ambience - to say the least. You might like the saying one of my friends/opponents use to say in speed chess: "an even exchange is a fair trade"; used when exchanging a bishop/knight for his opponent's rook.

[IKerensky_alt]

Blitz and speed chess obey the same rules as long time chess ( I really dig 20 minuts and 5 minuts blitz games ), In tournament game your friend/opponent would suffer a 2 minutes penalty for such a comment. Of course in friendly blitz game ( or 4 player variants ) there is alot more chat and sometimes pun

[undercovergeek]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

I'm sure most of you would prefer that I just shut up): if you don't have one that works to at least some competent degree, your game just ain't gonna sell.

I kinda wish that developers had never gone down the AI path with hex/turn based games. The best AI for wargames have always struck me as hash, anyhow. I want to play against human opponents, not the computer. For that matter, one of the best reasons for porting a boardgame over to a PC is that the move offers folks who are geographically isolated from other wargamers a chance to actually play. Conversely, I really have to question why someone would PREFER playing a computer over a human.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

totally agree with all of that and macgregor - there are plenty of 'noble' people on here who chime in with 'take as long as it takes steve', 'its ready when its ready' - thats great, except its all lies - you want the game tomorrow just like everyone else!

And macgregors idea (i think it was his idea!) - release without the AI for those that dont want it - and then all steve has to worry about is the AI itself, and all you people saying 'i can wait'..... well you can just wait til he's finished.... while the rest of us who want to use this game as a portal to play WiF against human opponents grow old and happy playing the game we wanted

[IKerensky_alt]

Ok Undercover.
&nbsp;
Lets say Steve stop working on the AI and concentrate on the PBEM and Networked play, that means the game is still 2 month to be released as thoses features are NOT ready nor tested yet.
&nbsp;
Then the game is put to sold without AI at 60$ a piece. 2-6 month after it is released with the AI at 60$ a piece, will you buy it a second time ? How many people out there that doesnt come to the forum would buy it the second time ? How bad will be this game and Matrix reputation be if they release a complexe strategic game with no AI ? how many people that didn't knew it was a pre-release because they dont care to decrypt about press release wont touch the AI version with a 10-feet pole ?
&nbsp;
You want a AI less version ? download VASSAL or CYBERBOARD or whatever else, or buy CWiF... you will have what you asked and a bit more.
&nbsp;
Steve is right, he need to serve all his customers at once.
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Or perhaps I should start to press that we drop NETPLAY and PBEM and concentrate on the AI, the guys that want to play multi could use hotseat or an app-share program until the multiplayer patch is released...

[undercovergeek]

ORIGINAL: Greywolf

Ok Undercover.

Lets say Steve stop working on the AI and concentrate on the PBEM and Networked play, that means the game is still 2 month to be released as thoses features are NOT ready nor tested yet.

Then the game is put to sold without AI at 60$ a piece. 2-6 month after it is released with the AI at 60$ a piece, will you buy it a second time ? How many people out there that doesnt come to the forum would buy it the second time ? How bad will be this game and Matrix reputation be if they release a complexe strategic game with no AI ? how many people that didn't knew it was a pre-release because they dont care to decrypt about press release wont touch the AI version with a 10-feet pole ?

You want a AI less version ? download VASSAL or CYBERBOARD or whatever else, or buy CWiF... you will have what you asked and a bit more.

Steve is right, he need to serve all his customers at once.

Or perhaps I should start to press that we drop NETPLAY and PBEM and concentrate on the AI, the guys that want to play multi could use hotseat or an app-share program until the multiplayer patch is released...

im not talking about a prerelease - just sell the damn game with out the ai, patch 1.1 in a few months has the AI in it. You and a 1000 others dont mind this because 'youre happy to wait as long as it takes, just keep plodding on steve!' and will buy the game then when the patch is ready.

Me and the 1000 others who dont want the AI will give steve our money and will be playing it in a few months without one. If there truly is a market for the game in both versions noone is going to lose any money, not matrix, not the customer. i dont want to buy it again, i dont need to buy it again - i have the ai-less 1.0 version, you can wait for the 1.1 however long it takes and buy it then - do you have a problem with this ides? you dont want the game without an ai, and steve will write it and it takes 'as long as it takes' which youre happy with, im happy because im pbem-ing my ass off without an AI - whos lost out?

[Anendrue]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

I'm sure most of you would prefer that I just shut up): if you don't have one that works to at least some competent degree, your game just ain't gonna sell.

I kinda wish that developers had never gone down the AI path with hex/turn based games. The best AI for wargames have always struck me as hash, anyhow. I want to play against human opponents, not the computer. For that matter, one of the best reasons for porting a boardgame over to a PC is that the move offers folks who are geographically isolated from other wargamers a chance to actually play. Conversely, I really have to question why someone would PREFER playing a computer over a human.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

totally agree with all of that and macgregor - there are plenty of 'noble' people on here who chime in with 'take as long as it takes steve', 'its ready when its ready' - thats great, except its all lies - you want the game tomorrow just like everyone else!

And macgregors idea (i think it was his idea!) - release without the AI for those that dont want it - and then all steve has to worry about is the AI itself, and all you people saying 'i can wait'..... well you can just wait til he's finished.... while the rest of us who want to use this game as a portal to play WiF against human opponents grow old and happy playing the game we wanted

Thank you for calling others and I "Noble". The trruth is everybody does want want the game as soon as possible. But the "Noble" among us have the wisdom to know that the best things in life are worth waiting for and even better when you take your time to do it right. So the game will be ready when it is ready.

[Neilster]

What would reviewers make of this complex wargame that has been released with no AI but the promise of one at some point in the future?

What would people who purchased it without realising they wouldn't have a computer opponent think of the game and Matrix in general?

Matrix is committed to MWiF having an AI and always has been for good reason. Get over it because your complaints are not going to change anything. Perhaps you could try going down to the beach to command the tide to obey you too.

Cheers, Neilster