Why all of the off map areas?

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
but they do eventually reappear in an 'attackable' hex? not just their destination? and if this is the case - is there any reason why i just wouldnt plant a load of subs of a SCTF at the 'reappear' hex?

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown
TFs do appear at the map edge. If the Allied player does not vary their routing then TFs moving from, say, Cape Town to Perth would indeed enter the map at a fairly predictable location, but sensible Allied players would vary the routing to avoid this (and/or maybe send ASW TFs to that area?).

Andrew

Just to add a couple of cents...

The places where off map TFs tend to enter the map are all a long ways from Japanese bases. A surface TF at an exit location would be tough to do. Some of the longest range Japanese subs might have some loiter time at an exit hex, but they might go all that distance to sit in vain if the Allied player isn't happening to use that particular route at that time.

The Allies can always add escorts to their off map convoys, or have the off map convoys hook up with escorts when they get to the base on the map edge. That would be wise to do anyway.

A IJN sub with damage is going to have a very long trip home. With Japanese damage control being what it is, they might not make it.

Bill

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: wdolson
The Allies can always add escorts to their off map convoys, or have the off map convoys hook up with escorts when they get to the base on the map edge. That would be wise to do anyway.

I would have thought the Allies, at least in 1942, would be quite stretched to heavily escort every convoy they need, though. I know in WITP I was forced to have unescorted convoys for much of the map, and that was just to supply Noumea/Brisbane.

Furthermore I'd figure that if the Japanese were serious about interdicting some convoy, they'd send a pretty heavy force. If the Japanese committed 3 or 4 heavy cruisers, say, I doubt any convoy they found would be likely to hold that off.

Admittedly my logistical talents are negligible... and maybe the Colorado class BBs finally found a use.

[undercovergeek]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek
i would hope it doesnt magically appear - im not usually in agreement with pad152 - but if you can theres no point in isolating Oz, or indeed shutting down the eastern supply route to it surely?

That's right. no "magic" appearence at the destination base. So in the example being discussed the Alled TF moving to Perth would appear on the left map edge, and is able to be detected and attacked while moving from there to Perth.

Andrew

thankyou for your many replies - as always very helpful

[undercovergeek]

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Boy, no matter how much effort someone puts into a game to simulate WW2 conditions there will always be one person whining because it hurts their gameplay strategy.

if this is directed at me - my gameplay strategy is decided by the rules of the game, if i need a new strategy i need to know the rules, simple as that, i dont care if the US can ship in supplies tied to dolphins, as long as someone is going to give me anti dolphin nets and tell me how to use them thats fine.

No whining here my post misinterprating friend - just rule clarification [:)]

[TheTomDude]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Someone also asked about sending British troops to the Aleutians. If you really want to, you can, but it's going to be a heck of a long voyage, more than 3/4 of the way around the world. The only reason I can think of why anyone would want to do it would be as an experiment. In a real game it's so impractical it would be pretty boneheaded to do. I would never do it. It would weaken my already weak forces in the Far East and those units would be unavailable for more than a month.

Bill

Bill,
the question was not if I could do it as a player (I knew I could), but it was rather an example if the AI can and will use off-map areas to ship units "around the globe". Or if it sticks to the historical scenario.

[Sardaukar]

Well, if IJN can spare 3-4 CAs to interdict convoys to Perth....they'd be long way from home. Realistic home bases for them being Singapore/Soerabaja/Batavia. I'd hate to have heavy combat and be that far from base, even if it netted a convoy. It could easily mean loss of 1-2 CAs if things turn bad. Like finding out that you just tried to intercept CV TF...or that convoy had couple of cruisers in it. [8D]

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Well, if IJN can spare 3-4 CAs to interdict convoys to Perth....they'd be long way from home. Realistic home bases for them being Singapore/Soerabaja/Batavia. I'd hate to have heavy combat and be that far from base, even if it netted a convoy. It could easily mean loss of 1-2 CAs if things turn bad. Like finding out that you just tried to intercept CV TF...or that convoy had couple of cruisers in it. [8D]

Surprises like that are why the game is fun. [:D]

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: pad152

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Some of us feel those "off map" places were mandatory for historic reasons.
At least 2 American divisions staged from Panama and never set foot anywhere near the west coast of CONUS.

If Panama can't be attacked by the Japanese it has no effect on the game, you might as well place troops on the moon.

There was actually a plan late in the war to hit the canal by submarines laden with aircraft. I don't recall the details, but some of the submarines had difficulties of another sort shortly before that and it was called off.

[jeffk3510]

ORIGINAL: pad152

I played the CHS mod for WITP, and off map area for British forces coming into India made sense but, Panama didn't! I mean just have stuff show up on the west cost of the US/Canada a week later.

In the AE manual I see off map areas for the Soviet Union, Eastern Canada, Eastern US, Monbasa, Cap Town, Port Stanley, plus others. I just don't see the reason for most of these and forcing the player to moving troops, ships, supplies, etc. not only across the pacific but, also move them to/from all these other off map places seems like a bit. What the pacific map wasn't big enough, there wasn't enough already for the player to do? What is the purpose of these? What does this add to the game other than waste player time?

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Someone also asked about sending British troops to the Aleutians. If you really want to, you can, but it's going to be a heck of a long voyage, more than 3/4 of the way around the world. The only reason I can think of why anyone would want to do it would be as an experiment. In a real game it's so impractical it would be pretty boneheaded to do. I would never do it. It would weaken my already weak forces in the Far East and those units would be unavailable for more than a month.

Bill

ORIGINAL: TheTomDude
Bill,
the question was not if I could do it as a player (I knew I could), but it was rather an example if the AI can and will use off-map areas to ship units "around the globe". Or if it sticks to the historical scenario.

I would be very surprised if the AI moved British troops out of the Burma-India theater. The AI has some surprises programmed in, but there is nothing vastly ahistorical like that.

Bill

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Some of us feel those "off map" places were mandatory for historic reasons.
At least 2 American divisions staged from Panama and never set foot anywhere near the west coast of CONUS.

ORIGINAL: pad152
If Panama can't be attacked by the Japanese it has no effect on the game, you might as well place troops on the moon.

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
There was actually a plan late in the war to hit the canal by submarines laden with aircraft. I don't recall the details, but some of the submarines had difficulties of another sort shortly before that and it was called off.

The I-400 class could carry 3 Serian float plane/bombers. Three subs were built.
http://www.ww2pacific.com/i-400.html

The plans to attack the Panama Canal were really a pipe dream. The subs could only put a grand total of nine bombers carrying one bomb each over the canal. The US had fighter units permanently based at the canal and would likely have scrambled fighters if unusual blips showed up on the radar. If they got lucky, some may have been able to drop their bombs, but the plan was to take out the gates on the locks. The British discovered when they attacked the dams in the Ruhr Valley that bombing something like that wouldn't be easy. The pressure wave from a near miss might have done some damage to the locks, but only a direct hit would take them out.

It's highly unlikely the Japanese would have achieved any success and they may have lost all three subs. The I-400s were the largest subs built until the nuclear subs were built. They would have been relatively easy to find and would have been very vulnerable on the surface while getting the planes ready for launch. The planes were carried with the wings detached and required time to mount the wings.

The US had radar equipped ASW aircraft based at the canal that would have been patrolling. The subs would have shown up like a CL on radar and almost certainly would have been investigated. If the US planes attacked, the subs would have had a tough time doing a crash dive with planes on deck and the water tight hanger door open. Even if the US planes were slow to attack, the Japanese most likely would have gotten spooked and jettisoned the planes to submerge. Either way, the mission would have been a failure.

Another factor would have been the poor quality of Japanese pilots at that point in the war. How accurate could their bombing be?

Bill

[pad152]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: pad152
In Witp if you wanted to get ships to India or Australia from the west coast of the US they had to sail across the map but, now in AE you can used the magical off map transport system where ships can't spotted or attacked, how is that not an advantage to the allied player? The allied player could send a carrier battle group or half the fleet this way. This makes the strategy of trying to cut off supplies to Australia mood, because the Allies can send everything through the magical back door.

Well, you know, the world really is round, despite what the Japanese high command might wish. [:D]

I don't see much of a problem here though? I presume it would take a LONG time to sail from San Francisco eastwards to Perth, much longer than it would take to sail to Brisbane.

...and IJ could always just take or interdict Perth to be sure?

The point is this, in AE Japan could take every base south of Japan, yet the allies can still sail to Australia and India without sailing anywhere near a Japanese base! If that isn't an advantage(cheating, gamey, etc, etc) to the allies what is?

[pad152]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Some of us feel those "off map" places were mandatory for historic reasons.
At least 2 American divisions staged from Panama and never set foot anywhere near the west coast of CONUS.

ORIGINAL: pad152
If Panama can't be attacked by the Japanese it has no effect on the game, you might as well place troops on the moon.

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
There was actually a plan late in the war to hit the canal by submarines laden with aircraft. I don't recall the details, but some of the submarines had difficulties of another sort shortly before that and it was called off.

The I-400 class could carry 3 Serian float plane/bombers. Three subs were built.
http://www.ww2pacific.com/i-400.html

The plans to attack the Panama Canal were really a pipe dream. The subs could only put a grand total of nine bombers carrying one bomb each over the canal. The US had fighter units permanently based at the canal and would likely have scrambled fighters if unusual blips showed up on the radar. If they got lucky, some may have been able to drop their bombs, but the plan was to take out the gates on the locks. The British discovered when they attacked the dams in the Ruhr Valley that bombing something like that wouldn't be easy. The pressure wave from a near miss might have done some damage to the locks, but only a direct hit would take them out.

It's highly unlikely the Japanese would have achieved any success and they may have lost all three subs. The I-400s were the largest subs built until the nuclear subs were built. They would have been relatively easy to find and would have been very vulnerable on the surface while getting the planes ready for launch. The planes were carried with the wings detached and required time to mount the wings.

The US had radar equipped ASW aircraft based at the canal that would have been patrolling. The subs would have shown up like a CL on radar and almost certainly would have been investigated. If the US planes attacked, the subs would have had a tough time doing a crash dive with planes on deck and the water tight hanger door open. Even if the US planes were slow to attack, the Japanese most likely would have gotten spooked and jettisoned the planes to submerge. Either way, the mission would have been a failure.

Another factor would have been the poor quality of Japanese pilots at that point in the war. How accurate could their bombing be?

Bill

All this is well known and posted about 5 years ago, the fact remains, that in AE Japan can't attack Panama! So any thing based there is off limits.

[pad152]

ORIGINAL: jeffk3510

ORIGINAL: pad152

I played the CHS mod for WITP, and off map area for British forces coming into India made sense but, Panama didn't! I mean just have stuff show up on the west cost of the US/Canada a week later.

In the AE manual I see off map areas for the Soviet Union, Eastern Canada, Eastern US, Monbasa, Cap Town, Port Stanley, plus others. I just don't see the reason for most of these and forcing the player to moving troops, ships, supplies, etc. not only across the pacific but, also move them to/from all these other off map places seems like a bit. What the pacific map wasn't big enough, there wasn't enough already for the player to do? What is the purpose of these? What does this add to the game other than waste player time?

If you don't like it, don't buy it.

It's called having a debate!
The AI when playing Japan may take Canton, Fiji and several other southern bases to try cutting the supply lines to India and Australia, but the allied player now doesn't need to sail near them by using the off map method to ship stuff! Do you think that's fare?

[rogueusmc]

Could they have done it in real life?..I mean, gone the long way around?

[n01487477]

Oh it is fair in this design Pad152, but I get your point and would like to expand it somewhat.

The real issue for me is that there is no real incentive for the Allies to defend anything in the South Pacific. If there is a next iteration of WITP ala II, then not only should VP's be used but maybe  PP's that are now accumulated at a fixed rate should be formulated by national morale or some such indicator ensuring that some bases have to be defended. I think it unacceptable that the Japanese can rampage around the map as much as the Allies can hole up and do nothing, when Noumea, New Zealand etc are invaded basically cause they don't need to.

I haven't thought too much about how it could be totally fixed, but I guess in the end you need to pick an opponent who will come out and play beyond the scope of hindsight regarding what they'll have in '44 and where the war will ultimately go. 

I posted some of my thoughts here on my AAR about this:
fb.asp?m=1900084

As to the original posting about troops arriving a week later, well I'd guess that the arrival date has been adjusted to reflect the transportation from Europe or the East Coast anyway.

--Damian-- (I'm not an accountant [:D][:D] - in regard to the last time I debated you)

[pad152]

ORIGINAL: n01487477

Oh it is fair in this design Pad152, but I get your point and would like to expand it somewhat.

The real issue for me is that there is no real incentive for the Allies to defend anything in the South Pacific. If there is a next iteration of WITP ala II, then not only should VP's be used but maybe PP's that are now accumulated at a fixed rate should be formulated by national morale or some such indicator ensuring that some bases have to be defended. I think it unacceptable that the Japanese can rampage around the map as much as the Allies can hole up and do nothing, when Noumea, New Zealand etc are invaded basically cause they don't need to.

I haven't thought too much about how it could be totally fixed, but I guess in the end you need to pick an opponent who will come out and play beyond the scope of hindsight regarding what they'll have in '44 and where the war will ultimately go.

I posted some of my thoughts here on my AAR about this:
fb.asp?m=1900084

As to the original posting about troops arriving a week later, well I'd guess that the arrival date has been adjusted to reflect the transportation from Europe or the East Coast anyway.

--Damian-- (I'm not an accountant [:D][:D] - in regard to the last time I debated you)

Andrew, stated this can be fixed by the player with the editor (removing/disable some of this map movement), I hope that's true. I'm just surprised that this is even in AE, it seems like such an advantage to the allied player. I think both players should be forced to move their forces on the same map.

[Sardaukar]

Maybe because historically they had that ability...[8D]

[Andy Mac]

Correct historically if the japanese cut off Australia from USA then the allies COULD have went the long way round - its not efficient but it could be done
 
its desperation measures but it can be done as it could have been in the real war

[Andy Mac]

I didnt say you could remove the movement what I said was you could bring on MAP all the ships and LCU's arriving there and move the free supply to an on map location so you dont need to use the off map bases very different from removing something as fundamental to AE as the off map movement boxes.
 
Andy