German government plans to destroy Gamer culture

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I think the scene below is one example of what prompted the German ministers to take action:

[center][/center]

It's hard to say if that kind of action is good or bad without knowing the whole story. In the case that is a gangster, mafia, a lawyer or a DRM developer, then it becomes necessary. Perchance the afflicted man is an honest pitfighter trying to make a living, then it's way excessive and the referee should have stepped in long ago.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

It's hard to say if that kind of action is good or bad without knowing the whole story. In the case that is a gangster, mafia, a lawyer or a DRM developer, then it becomes necessary. Perchance the afflicted man is an honest pitfighter trying to make a living, then it's way excessive and the referee should have stepped in long ago.

I think action like that is just all around bad no matter who it's done to, DRM developers or otherwise. When looking for monsters to maliciously destroy one needs to take care one doesn't become a monster oneself.

[Greybriar]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

What a disgusting game. Maybe violence in computer games doesn't necessarily cause violence in people but I would say that game crosses the line of good taste at the very least.

EDIT: I can't stand looking at that video so I deleted it from my post.

The video is reportedly from the game God of War III.

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

[center][/center]

It's hard to say if that kind of action is good or bad without knowing the whole story. In the case that is a gangster, mafia, a lawyer or a DRM developer, then it becomes necessary. Perchance the afflicted man is an honest pitfighter trying to make a living, then it's way excessive and the referee should have stepped in long ago.

I think action like that is just all around bad no matter who it's done to, DRM developers or otherwise. When looking for monsters to maliciously destroy one needs to take care one doesn't become a monster oneself.

That's the tired old rhetoric, but sometimes monsterdom goes a long way in deterring future evils. How many gangsters would still be in LA if they were sentenced to the pit in God of War III? How many people would still be filling threads on public forums explaining how DRM violated their gaming lives?

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

That's the tired old rhetoric, but sometimes monsterdom goes a long way in deterring future evils. How many gangsters would still be in LA if they were sentenced to the pit in God of War III? How many people would still be filling threads on public forums explaining how DRM violated their gaming lives?

Every once in a while "tired old rhetoric" is tried and true wisdom.

[Marc von Martial]

Well, now let us put this in perspective.

I am german, I am organized in game developer groups and forums, I have to deal with USK (Germanys ESRB), PEGI and others, so I would call myself informed on the matter.

There is a certain group of politicians and lobbyists that wants to bann the so called "Killergames". This has been going on for years and was fueled again after the last school shooting. Germany is in an election race this year. There is many guys around fishing for votes. We had an up and down of these discussions for as long as "Counterstrike" (the game they always refer to) has been on the market. So it is not Germany in general or all german politicians in general but a group. We will see what will actually happen. There is also groups of politicians that inform more objective and are against more drastic banns / regulations.

This discussion is also not unique to Germany. Many countries have its own share.

Most arguments brought up by these groups are nonsense. As we already have a pretty good rating system and overly agressive games are only to be sold to adults (18+) anyway. Then we have the so called "Index" were the really nasty stuff is on. But this group also has valid points. I really see no point in games beeing overly agressive, bloodfilled and to a degree tasteless and inhuman. I think the same of movies by the way. Instead developers and producers should go and fill the with top gameplay and storylines again. I like shooters, but really, these days I get very pretty bored by them when I'm over the initial "awesome new artwork!" shock. Because the storyline is too flat. There are exceptions of course.

The biggest problem is that this sales limitations are not completely enforced (but that's the same with alcohol and smokes over here), so 12 years old can get their copy of the latest and greatest massacre. Another problem is online sales from outside Germany. Nobody is really enforcing age checks there. So the only limitation for youngsters there is payment. Something they easily get around by parents paying for the stuff or by simply downloading the stuff from P2P plattforms.

Another problem is parents being lazy, they really not care or check on what their kids actually play or watch on TV. As long as they leave their parents alone and not get "on their nerves". It is very convenient. This is were everybody has to ask himself if he is doing enough. You must check with your kids, what they watch, what they play. And you need to talk with them about it. Play it with them. Try it out. And certain stuff, well you just need to not allow. Period.

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
BTW. how do you relate what you say to wargames? After all they are the most violent kind of video games, and are practically dedicated only to senseless bloodshed - they have no plot, no story, no message - only thinking how to kill the enemy better than he kills you.

For the most part, wargames are an intellectual activity and graphics have very little to do with them. Their content and the appropriateness of that content will always be a more scholarly debate and of little concern to politicians or the public at large.

There is a reason graphics sell in the video game market. The vast majority of people are only interested in what they see on screen, not what is represented by the game in question. That's why this anti-game stuff is relatively new. Back in the late 80's and early 90's you never heard a peep, because graphics in games were very basic back then.

Once someone could see the blood spatter on screen, then people started to care about game content. They'll never make an argument about whether or not representing war in a game is or is not appropriate. But let them see a grenade explode on screen and tear someone apart in a bloody mess and they'll scream to high heaven.

It's a sad commentary on the average intelligence of mankind. But the fact remains, sex and violence sell, but only if you get to see it.

Jim

The discussion is about "cruel acts of violence against human or human-like beings", it is especially with regards to excessive show of violence in "realistic" fashion. This is pretty unique to shooter and fighting games. The discussion never mentioned anything like war- and strategy games.

[Marc von Martial]

ORIGINAL: Perturabo
I'm a Gamer, that's my cultural identity. I've been a Gamer since I was a kid - since I played my first computer game. It was Commando on Commodore C-64. I think it was when I was 5 year old. 20 years ago.

You know I was around 16 when I played "Commando", I would not really call that a proper game for a 5 year old.

Now, I learn that German government not only besmirches my beloved Culture and my fellow Gamers and paints us as mass murderer wannabes and censors released games but now also wants to completely destroy the Gamer culture .

"Completely" is way exaggerated. The discussion is about a certain part of shooter and fighting games.
If you only learned this now then I have to ask myself what you did read in all the years before. This discussion is going on for years and years and is not unique to Germany.

While I was offended by the slander of Gamers, now I'm enraged by the escalation of hostility and violence towards my fellow Gamers.
So, now they want to forbid us to be Gamers, they want to take our culture away, to destroy who we are.
I'm truly enraged and I won't sit back and watch this crime against Gamers.

Like above, not they don't. Again, it is only about a certain segment.
Crime? Really, get a live and reflect what "real crimes" your own government / EU is enforcing on your people. I think in these times there is way more important things to got wound up about.

More, German politicians have tried to export their anti-Gamer bigotry to whole European Union about two years ago.
If they'll succeed the anti-gaming extremists will have greater chances to destroy Gaming in Europe.

I don't want to get into this whole EU thing, but really I guess Germany got a lot of restrictions from other EU countries lately.
What goes around comes around.[;)][:'(] (since you are so enraged, that was ment as a joke)

That's why actions needs to be taken. Not only because of fellow Gamers from Germany, but also, because it's a threat towards Gamers in whole EU.

About time "Gamers" get their butt up.

Anyway, such an attack on Gaming cannot be left without response.

I can't wait for the response by hardcore gamers. But honestly I strongly doubt there will be ever one. There was none in all the years before. Except for "slander" comments on forums and blog posts. Which is really not helping the whole affair at all, cause nobody hears it except fellow hardcore gamers.

Go out and inform, do it objectively, do it in a fashioned manner. But before you do so also inform yourself. There is so much hear say going on in the gaming community it really makes me think how they can be so uninformed about what is their hobby / identity or however you call it.
And certainly not do it by things like this "other thread".

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

The discussion is about "cruel acts of violence against human or human-like beings", it is especially with regards to excessive show of violence in "realistic" fashion. This is pretty unique to shooter and fighting games. The discussion never mentioned anything like war- and strategy games.

This reminds me of a line from "The Night of the Generals":

Inspector Morand: But, murder is the occupation of Generals.

Major Grau: Then let us say what is admirable on the large scale is monstrous on the small ...

Although there's much more death and destruction in WitP than in any first person shooter, violence in "spreadsheet warfare" is abstracted, as opposed to the bloody, one-on-one contests in the genre of "God of War".

Looks like Omar Shariff's "Major Grau" has been vindicated, and it's ironic that this fictional movie is abt the hunt to find a much decorated German General who is also a serial killer.

[Vorsteher]

Schöner Beitrag Marc [;)]

[Zakhal]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I think the scene below is one example of what prompted the German ministers to take action:

[center][EDITED because it's too disgusting to look at][/center]

What a disgusting game. Maybe violence in computer games doesn't necessarily cause violence in people but I would say that game crosses the line of good taste at the very least.

EDIT: I can't stand looking at that video so I deleted it from my post.

What about movies like saw-series? They have much worse scenes. Shouldnt they be banned too?

On the otherhand Im all for the ban if it means that world of warcraft is banned. I can allready hear the outcry rising from all those basements in parents houses around the world. Sweet. [:D]

[lancerunolfsson]

Well I wanted to kill people a long time before i started playing games. I was just raised to be polite enough to not kill anybody. If anything the games gave me something to do with my time.

heh...Germany is only doing this to show to the world that they are not violent nazis and trying to conquer and kill people anymore.After all they did start 2 World Wars.

The Serbians kind of started the first one. By backing a plot to kill a member of the Austrian Royal family and then refusing to hand over the ring leaders. Close to the same scenario with The Taliban and the invasion of Afganistan.

Second one started by Poles attacking a German Radio Station;^)

[sabre1]

Parents need to parent, and ban TV...[:)]

There needs to be consequences and anyone that says negative reinforcement doesn't work is smoking something that is illegal...

13 years of being a special education teacher, and working at an alternative education county run school site (future prisoners of America), where the common greeting of the morning is "F" you Mr. ******, and nothing is done to the little reprobates.

I grew up in the 50's, and when I was 9 no one gave it a thought if I went out shooting my .22 rifle all day hunting rabbits and other small game. I did not become a violent person, verified by the fact that I put up with the above reprobates, and you have not read about me going off on those little darlings.

All IMHO

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

My original point was however that the rash of school shootings we see year after year today is a relatively new phenomenon. There have been some in the past, usually with many years between events, but the frequency and numbers of occurrences we see today are what's new.

As I said, now everyone has to hear about school shootings and then hear about killer, including his last message.

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

So you're advocating violence as a means to an end. Hmm I wonder why this would seem like a positive solution to someone. It couldn't be because you play violent games and win those games through the use of violent actions? No of course not.

Experience. I used to be a pacifist for many years (amusingly, it was in time when I played computer games). and it didn't work.
Actually it created much more misery in my life than any violence has. Man has to be ready to defend himself and other people. Otherwise those that stand against humanity will harm him and people he loves. That's the hard truth that no ideology of non-violence can change.
One can try to escape it by claiming that he will be rewarded in afterlife or something like that, but here, inaction of good people leads to domination of evil people and harm of innocents.

Note that violence doesn't necessarily mean killing people. Actually, one of the reasons of things like going postal is that people are so restricted when it comes to violence that to them, violence becomes an unthinkable, apocalyptic event - which leads to choosing the most extreme form.
There are plenty of people who are unstable and are doing criminal violence, but aren't killers.

Sometimes an act of violence, like smashing a cupboard for example can be a way to defuse oneself - at least that's what my psychoterapeut has told me once.
In other situation, a few well aimed blows can be a difference between getting broken bones/being raped/being killed and the attacker getting a heavy sentence and getting out of a dangerous situation and the attacker not being charged with the results that would occur if one wouldn't defend oneself.
It's a win/win situation.

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

Violence is never a solution. I'm not saying it isn't called for in certain situations, but as a solution to societies problems? I think not.

Ok. Let's say, you see a following situation:
Some dude tries to rape a woman in the middle of the street (real situation).

What do you do? Do you gently try to talk him out of it or something like that? Do you ignore it? Do you call cops?

Obviously, you can't call cops, because cops would use violence and violence is never a solution.

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

But society has demonstrated an almost insatiable demand to be titillated by it. If society rejected violence in the news and on other forms of media by tuning out, we wouldn't see it. But people tune in by the millions to watch it, so every year it gets worse and worse.

Ok, that's it, I'm sorry, but reading stuff like this conditions me to violence. *click*

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

For the most part, wargames are an intellectual activity and graphics have very little to do with them. Their content and the appropriateness of that content will always be a more scholarly debate and of little concern to politicians or the public at large.

What graphics have to do with anything? The truth is that you could play games about building a communication empire, a financial empire, about building small business, building a theme park for kiddies to have fun in or doing other peaceful activities, but for some weird reason, you have chosen a genre about industrialized mass murder of young patriots.
And purely intellectual form makes this depravity even more perverse. You're playing a game that allows you to take a role of a mass murderer, but only in games that allow you to commit murder without graphical representation that offend your sense of aesthetics.

ORIGINAL: Greybriar

I think the scene below is one example of what prompted the German ministers to take action:

[center][/center]

It's pretty tame when compared to stuff that I see every day in Close Combat Modern Tactics.
Actually, as I said, Close Combat 3 was the second most violent game I've ever played - demo of this game shocked me and scared me despite that I've played girly-games like Mortal Kombat and GTA.

And one thing - have anyone considered the possibility that this game was made to evoke precisely the feelings that you experience?
This is very different from Mortal Kombat - MK was based on grotesque comedy and this game looks very grim, serious and intense. Something like someone wanted to deconstruct the grotesque comedy of games like Mortal Kombat and say: Hey, look people, ripping people's heads off isn't funny! It's horrible, sad and disgusting!

Which is kinda like what Close Combat series did for RTS and other wargames - You like moving units? You like combat? Then look how it looks and see that it's neither "purely intellectual", neither fun.
CC3 demo has very intense sound which build a grim, sad and oppressive atmosphere similar to that video.
For some weird reason other close combat games have toned-down sounds that can't give one nightmares any more.

But seriously, when I play wargames, I find them very different from normal games like Fallout or Baldur's Gate or Transport Tycoon - there's something about them that is very close to death - it's a kind of cold feeling of emptiness. It's one of the reasons why I have never finished a grand campaign in Close Combat - I usually get psychically exhausted by the senseless violence long before it ends.
As an experienced gamer, that played many games, I can say that these series belong to the same group as for example Manhunt - grim, sad, intense, brutal and scary. It simply feels the same.

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

There has certainly been an uptick in violence in our society. School shootings and all sorts of things you seldom heard about until the past few decades. I wonder what is going on and why? What is making some people so horribly inhuman as to go to a holocaust museum for example and kill innocent people? What is wrong with those people? What went wrong in their upbringing? [X(]

I think they hate Jews, or something like that. Hate does such thing with humans since the dawn of time.

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

How about the following idea:

Violent video games (a category I would take to include only stuff like Doom or Counterstrike, not for example most wargames, not even say Panzer Command or Close Combat) are not the cause of school shootings, or other forms of teen violence.

Frankly, school shootings are so rare, that it's hard to consider them the main form of "teen violence".
The most popular forms of kiddie/teen violence are:
* Calling names and other forms of verbal degradation.
* Gossip
* Beating up
* Weird things like showing people's heads into a toilet

The first two are sometimes initiated and supported by a teacher.
And the first three usually start before school.
Psychological abuse is most dangerous because it has highest chance of causing mental disorders.

Hell, when I was in primary school there was one creepy thing.
No one's character really changed from the beginning until the end. It was like everyone was predestined to do what they did. I don't think it's something that fans of blaming games would like to hear.

And actually, violent games like GTA had an opposite effect on me - they actually made me cease certain socially harmful activities like climbing roofs, pissing off people, making stupid pranks, etc.

ORIGINAL: SireCh

I´ve been there myself; school from 5th to 10th grade was hell, and NOBODY seriously tried to help me - all I got was "well it can´t be that bad" or "if you ignore them, they´ll stop" and crap like that.

Well, these are the consequences of pacifism and the "violence solves nothing" thinking that some people promote.

I was in similar situation, there were tons of people who didn't see any problem. Actually, one of the girls in class was sexually molested by some non-gamer scum and there were no consequences for them. They got highest degrees for behaviour at the end of the year.

ORIGINAL: SireCh

And I didn´t even play violent video games, so people would have had to find something else to blame - though I doubt anybody would have had the audacity to suggest that this disgusting bully scum had brought their fates upon themselves.

But did you think about it before hearing about school shooting? IMHO it would be better if there were some helpful stories about kids who managed to find a better live by moving to another school. Because, in reality it's much more significant and happens much more often than school massacres.

Also, the increase of crime is a lie that serves to terrify people into believing the crap that is served by the news.
FBI statistics say something else, violent crime in USA is in decline since 13 years.
So, are the violent games decreasing violence? It would be pretty consistent with Mikhail Bakhtin's concept of Carnival, which IMO everyone who talks about games, movies, etc. should know (I had it just after antique philosophers on history of literature lessons). Hah. I was probably the only person in class that could understand the concept. I actually used Postal as an example of Carnival culture and got 5.

ORIGINAL: Doggie

They should ban pimple faced teen aged geeks. No food or water unless they spend at least four hours a day outside.

Well, that's what a book called Why Bright Kids Get Pooor Grades and What You Can Do About It suggests to do with geeks and generally the type of people that get victims in school/school shooters.
Help kids to develop physically and be able to participate in physical activities, like playing in a soccer/football/basketball team. Then they won't be perpetual victims = no grudge towards the world.
Sadly, in many schools PE teachers can't even teach kids how to do proper push-ups[:(].
Usually they demand full push-ups from the start and some kids can't do them. They should do half push-ups to train their muscles enough to be able to make full push-ups.

I have learned to do push-ups when I was 24 after I've read in the Internet that one has to do half push-ups when one doesn't have muscle strength to do full ones[8|].

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

You know I was around 16 when I played "Commando", I would not really call that a proper game for a 5 year old.

You played a childish game like "Commando" when you were 16? When I was 16 I played games that had real artistic value like Fallout and Planescape: Torment.
Damn, I seriously need to stop talking with latecomers, because they always say weird stuff like this.

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

Go out and inform, do it objectively, do it in a fashioned manner. But before you do so also inform yourself. There is so much hear say going on in the gaming community it really makes me think how they can be so uninformed about what is their hobby / identity or however you call it.
And certainly not do it by things like this "other thread".

Frankly this thread has completely degenerated - it's not conductive to taking any action.

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

Like above, not they don't. Again, it is only about a certain segment.
Crime? Really, get a live and reflect what "real crimes" your own government / EU is enforcing on your people. I think in these times there is way more important things to got wound up about.

Previous government that had some funny ideas similar to this (let's ban violent games, let's ban porn, let's ban Black Metal, let's put all kiddies into uniforms, let's make everything Catholic, etc.) was forced to do early elections and the worst scum was removed from the parliament.

ORIGINAL: Marc von Martial

The discussion is about "cruel acts of violence against human or human-like beings", it is especially with regards to excessive show of violence in "realistic" fashion. This is pretty unique to shooter and fighting games. The discussion never mentioned anything like war- and strategy games.

It will probably include Close Combat series after I'll send them a demo of Close Combat 3 and information about how it's possible to play SS units there and about how there's a suspicious presence of people in wargaming communities that use insignia of SS units or portraits of Nazi soldiers in their avatars, names of Nazi soldiers, weird letters like SS- or 88 in their names.
And about the peculiar fascination and sometimes identification with Nazi war machine...
Yes, and in some communities that offer more free speech, these people sometimes turn out to be actual neoNazis...

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


[center][/center]

After seeing this silly thing so many times I'm actually working up an appetite to play this game. I don't have any of these TV game platforms so I have no clue about how to play them.

[GaryChildress]

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

After seeing this silly thing so many times I'm actually working up an appetite to play this game. I don't have any of these TV game platforms so I have no clue about how to play them.

Yeah. I notice you have a fascination with posting the preview which I cut out of my posts. To each his own. Have fun.

EDIT: The preview just reminds me of the poor journalist who was beheaded by Muslim extremists a few years back. Very gruesome and disturbing to think what it must be like to be beheaded alive.

[JudgeDredd]

Seems there are a couple of people in here, Gary, that like to "annoy"...I'm sure you know of whom I speak. Clearly they are posting the snip of video for your benefit...bad taste gentlemen.
 
Perturabo...you seriously need to look into other forms of fun...wargaming does not seem to fit you. Posting really, really long and inane posts do, however, but I'd much rather you posted these pointless posts elsewhere.

[vonRocko]

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


[center][/center]

After seeing this silly thing so many times I'm actually working up an appetite to play this game.

Same here! Looks pretty cool[:'(]
Let's see:For 30 years I played violent games,I listen to hard rock and heavy metal,I like gory movies and I eat my steaks rare! I should be a devil worshipping homicidal maniac.[:o] But I am not[&:]

[SS Hauptsturmfuhrer]

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

ORIGINAL: SS Hauptsturmfuhrer

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


[center][/center]

After seeing this silly thing so many times I'm actually working up an appetite to play this game.

Same here! Looks pretty cool[:'(]
Let's see:For 30 years I played violent games,I listen to hard rock and heavy metal,I like gory movies and I eat my steaks rare! I should be a devil worshipping homicidal maniac.[:o] But I am not[&:]

You sound pretty cool vonRocko. [8D]

[kafka]

sorry, but this thread has got really disgusting, I really don't get that someone pretending being a human being would have so much fun continually posting the very same disgusting video