Naval stuff

[Kingmaker]

HiHi

Am I doing something wrong, got the wrong end of the stick or what?

As Spain in a PBEM game (patched up to 1.09) I have got 1 of my Docks up to level 9, my thinking being it will build better Ships & fleets, it doesn't appear to be happening.

I have built 3 frigate in those Docks as the level went up from 6 to 9 they all came out with 2.92 (ish) Moral, tried building a fleet there at level 9, Moral 4 same as the fleets I inherited at games start, it did however have an initiative of 85% compared to the other fleets 75% so I transferred my main Battle fleet ships to new fleet, result still 4 Moral but initiative drops to 75%.

So, is it a waste of time Spain investing in new Dock development or am I missing something?

All the Best
Peter

[Franck]

Well they at least give you more experience... But I tough they also gave more moral.


I am really impressed by the answer.

[ithuriel2]

It is worth building Dock Levels up I find for the following reasons :-

a) Increases the rate of experience points which gives very useful upgrades, plus the acquisition/purchase of attributes,
all of which makes for more powerful ships, plus economic benefits via the Naval Upgrade - Fleet upkeep cost reduced
to zero. See pdf Appendix Manual for all upgrades.

b) Increases the speed of ship repairs when damaged in battle.

c) Docks Level 7 increases port earning from trade. Hover mouse over dock development in Develop Advisor for context
sensitive info.

Docks development is supposed to speed up building time but I very rarely build ships. I try to obtain by capturing province after defeating and forcing enemy ships into port. This works very well when attacking Spain down in the south.
One should not under estimate naval power. CoG EE reflects this historical reality very well I think.
Once you have control of the seas you can move armies where ever, and supply via seas (providing you keep the supply chains reasonably well protected. Fairly easy if playing Britain, tad more challenging if not but do-able.

Hope this helps.

[Kingmaker]

HiHi

Thanks for the feedback Ithureil. I am aware of all that, the prob here may well be with the fact it's a PBEM game and it seems some stuff that works OK in Solo games doesn't cross over to PBEM.

For eg you mentioned Attributes, well none of those 3 frigates were able to recieve any.

Ships transfered to the Brand new fleet built in level 9 Docks still can only be given a choise of 5 attributes, more guns, reinforced hulls, extra marines, copper bottoms & 1 other it's that sort of thing that I may have got the wrong end of the stick over, ie I was expecting more form a level 9 Docks than just the benefits you mention, in solo games I seem to remember recieving extra benifits from upgrading Docks with regard to attributes etc.

All the Best
Peter

[ithuriel2]

Sorry to hear the problem. Have not played PBEM as there is no detailed combat available from what I've read in the forum - is that correct ?

[Kingmaker]

HiHi

Yer quite correct, no 'Detailed batle' in PBEM, all battles are sorted vie 'Instant battle', that said PBEM does offer a whole new perspective on the game and playing against Humans is a lot of fun, they tend to be a tad brighter than the AI ))

If you feel up to the challenge pop a post on the Reserve list thread in the 'Opponants wanted' folder and I'll add your name to the list.

All the Best
Peter

[Franck]

Just don't trust kingmaker if you ever play with him


He's gona steal your wife, your children, your house and the kitchen's sink... After that he is still gona find a way to make the international community point at you with an angry finger...


[:D][:D][:D]

[Kingmaker]

HiHi

Its know as "Succesful" 'Diplomacy' Franck [:'(] [:D]

All the Best
Peter

[ithuriel2]

Thanks Peter. I'll ponder on it. I love detailed combat - advanced chess gaming. Just imagine if one could play detailed combat via PBEM.

[Franck]

I woudl be against PBEM detailled combat! I think I would even be against something that let players figth there battle in TCP whatever realtime threw the net... It's already hard enought to get a game rolling.


I do admit this feature would make some player want to play PBEM tough. Anyways, I used to think like you (no PBEM because of no Detailed). BUT once you get the hang of the detailed battle the AI isn't a challenge that much anymore... And it gets boring fighting those big battles (for me). Playing PBEM pitches you against really good openents and for once a war is not just settled by marching all the way to de opponent'S capital and then waiting until he surrenders (after you claimed all minors on the way). Nah a war in PBEM can actually last really long and protecting your supply lanes is SO important. By just setting your army in the right position you cna threaten a way bigger army advancing ot your capital.

[Franck]

Might add that it's frustrating beieng unbale to beat Napoleon when you have 2 to 1 odds... But it feels much more historical even if frustrating

[Kingmaker]

HiHi

Nuge, so evwalt can Looksee.

All the Best
Peter

[Mus]

The initiative of a container like a fleet is going to be the lowest initiative value of its attached ships if that makes sense. Believe 1st/2nd rates being larger ships have 75 initiative as well as 4th rates. 3rd rates being more maneuverable and frigates have 85 IIRC.

Likewise, its morale is going to be the average of the morale of the ships attached.

Dock levels give more naval experience and IME reduce ship building time slightly, but my experience is limited to England and in that case I only build in the highest dock developed province (Portsmouth). I have increased the dock level there and IIRC it did build a little faster and give slightly better quality so I think that aspect is working correctly. It just isnt the huge differen you think it might be?

Edit. I was wrong about the exact effects of docks. Also the quality effect is related to barracks as well. From the manual:

7.2.4 Docks
Docks speed production of naval units, merchant income, and repair damaged
ships.
• Ship Construction Time and Morale – Every two levels of Docks reduce
the building time of a ship by one month. Docks and Barracks improve
the Morale of ships built in a province by (Barracks/ 20) + (Docks/5).
• Experience Points and Upgrades – Docks produce Naval Experience,
which permit the purchase of naval Upgrades. Naval Experience is earned
every quarter (Jan/Apr/Jul/Oct), each province contributing 10% of the
square of the Docks level to Experience.
• Ship Repair – Docks also heal damaged ships located in the same province.
Every month, each level of Docks has an 80% chance of rebuilding one
Strength-factor in a damaged ship located in its province.
• Doubling Merchant Income – Docks of 7 or more doubles Merchant
income received at the port. (See the section on Merchants below.)

[Mus]

Followup.

I have a couple frigates that were each involved in 1 victory and are currently at 5.40 Morale.

They were built in portsmouth, 4 barracks, 7 docks.

According to the formula, morale at construction would have been base morale + .2 + 1.4.

No idea what base morale for a British ship is.

Edit:

I looked at the rest of the ships I have built and all of the are 5.4 morale, so I doubt these numbers have been changed by battles to exactly the same value considering the ships are in various fleets and some havent seen any action at all.

Not sure I believe that the base morale for a ship isnt an even number so Im tempted to say that the formula isnt accurate. 5.4 would make sense if just the dock part (dock level/5) was being added and the base morale for a British ship was 4.

I may start a new dock in Portsmouth in Another PBEM as soon as possible to see if the Morale of a new ship built there ends up being 5.6.

For some reason you can magically produce 4th rates even when over mob limit.

[;)]

[evwalt]

OK. Went diving into the modders guide to find what is called the BASEMORALE, the base morale for new units.

In the 1792 scenerio, that is the following:

France: 4.5
England: 5
Sweden: 3.75
Prussia: 3.5
Austria: 3.5
Russia: 3.75
Turkey: 2.5
Spain: 2.75

For those in my game:
Denmark: 3.5

I would assume this applies to all builds, land and naval. Thus, using the formula from the rules as written, any English ships built at Portsmouth should have 5 (base) + 1.4 (level 7 docks/5) + 0.2 (level 4 barracks/20) or 6.6.

[ericbabe]

I just looked at the code.  Morale for newly built ships should be .05 x Barracks + .2 x Docks + .5 per Naval Academy upgrade.  It looks as though it should be using the nation's base morale as the base morale for the ship, so it looks as though your formula for Portsmouth should be correct.  Let me know in the Support forum if it's not working this way.

[Mus]

Dont know if you want to just move the thread to support instead of having us start a new thread and retype all this info?

IME Ships coming out of Portsmouth, stats as already listed, have morale of 5.4. So something seems amiss.

Eric, as long as you are looking at this thread for followup on naval issues, in "Another PBEM" as Great Britain I have Colonial Warfare I and II yet have not taken a single enemy colony. Is there any quick way to check that this is working correctly in PBEM games? I know its working in single player, but in PBEM have yet to capture a single colony, and have had many wars, with 20% chance to capture one every turn, would have expected to see it happen already.

Thanks.

[ericbabe]

It may just be that all ships have the same base morale instead of the national morale.  I'll look into this further.

The code looks OK for Colonial Warfare and PBEM, but I'd have to do more extensive testing to be sure.  Has anyone else seen this work (or not)?

Thanks for the reports on these.

[Kingmaker]

HiHi

Eric, an update for Spains 3 Frigates built while Docks rising from level 6 to level 9

All 3 came of the stocks @ 2.75 moral

There are no Barracks in Cartagena.

The last came off while Spains NM was 64

the 2 survivours are with a fleet at 4 moral, all ships in the fleet show 4 moral except the Frigates which are still 2.75

I still have the .sve file should you need it.

All the Best
Peter

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

It may just be that all ships have the same base morale instead of the national morale. I'll look into this further.

Definetely not. British ships are coming out of Portsmouth (4 barracks, 7 docks) for me at 5.4 morale, Kingmakers ships are coming out at 2.75 in a province with no barracks and docks raising from 6 to 9 are not raising his morale.

He actually has more docks in the province he is building out of, and if the formula is correct AND the base morale was the same as you speculated, I believe his ships would be coming out with slightly higher morale than mine.

I think the base morale is different, but that Docks are having no effect at all and only barracks level is increasing my ships morale from base morale 5 to 5.40.

Did this formula change from manual printing to release like March Attrition? Knowing the actual formula if different would help us figure out whats not being factored in.

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

The code looks OK for Colonial Warfare and PBEM, but I'd have to do more extensive testing to be sure.  Has anyone else seen this work (or not)?

Thanks for the reports on these.

False alarm on colonial warfare. Captured a colony from Turkey this turn. Guess I was getting a long string of bad rolls.

Unfortunately, it doesnt look like ships morale is increasing by experience in combat. All the ships I have built that started with 5.40 morale still have 5.40 morale even after getting in a few battles.