The HMS Indomitable hit a reef in Jamaica on 3 NOV 41, and was forced to go to Norfolk,VA for repairs. This prevented her from carrying out her original mission: accompany Force Z to Singapore.
I wonder if Indomitable had been part of Force Z, would the outcome have been any different. Would Tom Thumb have taken the Carrier and her Fulmars into the Gulf of Siam with him. Would the Fulmars have been able to handle the Betties and Nells, or would Indomitable have joined POW and Repulse on the bottom?
When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way
its questionable as to whether her small airgroup could have influenced the outcome to a major degree. Similar speculation revolves around if the RAF had provided a rudimentary LRCAP. However, the presense of a third major target coupled with interfering with at least one major element might have saved one of the ships from being crippled/sunk.
Hindsight guessing is made all the harder given that PoW was crippled by a single torp. Her crippling alone ends the threat of Force Z.
Thats rather embarassing. Who managed to do that and to what? [:D]
A British or American CV. In Jamaica, in 1942. I'll check at home [8D]
The HMS Indomitable hit a reef in Jamaica on 3 NOV 41, and was forced to go to Norfolk,VA for repairs. This prevented her from carrying out her original mission: accompany Force Z to Singapore.
which was actualy a lucky break for the rn as she would have just been sunk at singapore along with the rest of force z.
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The HMS Indomitable hit a reef in Jamaica on 3 NOV 41, and was forced to go to Norfolk,VA for repairs. This prevented her from carrying out her original mission: accompany Force Z to Singapore.
I wonder if Indomitable had been part of Force Z, would the outcome have been any different. Would Tom Thumb have taken the Carrier and her Fulmars into the Gulf of Siam with him. Would the Fulmars have been able to handle the Betties and Nells, or would Indomitable have joined POW and Repulse on the bottom?
i believe she still had sea gadiators at the time. and no it wouldn't of made a diff it would of just got it sunk. there were not enough fighters to deal with all the bombers.
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its questionable as to whether her small airgroup could have influenced the outcome to a major degree. Similar speculation revolves around if the RAF had provided a rudimentary LRCAP. However, the presense of a third major target coupled with interfering with at least one major element might have saved one of the ships from being crippled/sunk.
Hindsight guessing is made all the harder given that PoW was crippled by a single torp. Her crippling alone ends the threat of Force Z.
didn't she take a torp to the propeller shaft what ripped her open over almost the entire length of that shaft?
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If there is ever a WitP it needs a much more sophisticated damage model. Damage at the highest level should equal damage taken from things like fires and should be easily repairable at forward bases to simulate emergency repairs to simply get the ship back in floating condition with enough speed to get it back to a major repair yard.
Splitting up engine and system damage is a good start but is still not enough. The game recognizes every 'point' of damage as being equal.
This is represented in AE as Joe explained. You "patch up" the ship at the forward base (reduce non-Major FLT damage for example) then the ship journeys back to a shipyard for permanent repairs. One does have to be cautious with ships with serious major floatation damage as there is a risk of emergency repairs "failing"
Overall, i like the feel of the new system, especially in regards to "upgrades". It forces the player to balance maintaining certain strength levels in forward areas with the need to send ships back to "refit" (aka, upgrade) and the provisioning of "major" damage now requires ships to travel back to shipyards for complete repairs. The end result is less ships at the front which helps slow the pace of the game.
This sounds more in line with history, especialy the way the Allies handled damage.
[didn't she take a torp to the propeller shaft what ripped her open over almost the entire length of that shaft?
Closely yes. The torp hit near the outer prop (one source suggests a 2nd torp hit near simotaniously nearby as well). Either way, the explosion bent the shaft which was revolving at high RPM's which coupled with a slowed reaction by the Engine gange caused it to compromise the WT integrity of the shaft compartments all the way back to it's engine room. One probably could not have picked a worse place for her to be hit.
One source estimated that the ship took on nearly 10,000 tons of water from this one hit. Her speed and maneuverability were severely reduced, her quarterdeck became nearly awash reducing stability for the remaining bouancy, and as if that wasn't enough, she lost power to most of her AA weaponry due to lack of backup power sources. The only good thing that came out of the experience was that it highlighted, as combat tends to do, needed improvements for the KGV class.....mainly in the form of increased aux power for the pumps, need for more pumps and improving the WT integrity of venting caps. The experience also highlighted needed improvements in damage control training. (a number of WT doors were left open during the battle by retreating crews). Weaknesses in the Anti-torpedo scheme could not be addressed but were incorporated into Vanguard's design.
Used to be, in stock, HQs, ARs, things like that, had the “effect” of bumping up a port level, which used to be the prime determinant of the system; you had to go looking for a port level = x, to do a deed.
Nowadays, everything, and I do mean everything, is independent. “Naval Support” squads take the place of HQs. HQs don’t mean squat unless they have NavSup in the OOB. Conversely, a Naval Port unit may have a bunch of NavSup gobs, but no HQ function whatever. So you can actually put “Scrappy” Kessing and his boys into Tulagi, and turn it into a nice little Naval base and repair center.
Nowadays, NavSup and ARs, and the like, are like a deck of cards; you only get so many. There’s only 4 aces in the deck, and there’s also 4 duces. You put an AR into SFO, it can only support one ship up to its capability. No more of this “bump the port doo-doo”, it is only one card – play it wisely.
You put the same AR at Bafangoo, it can support the same ship up to its same capability. Again, it is only one card, so play it wisely.
You will have “things” in your playbox. A largish port can do some neat stuff, but only to a limited tonnage of ships. NavSup is a multiplier, but only up to its # of squads. ARs are a multiplier of sorts – one AR fixes one boat – and so on, and so on.
Concept is to make the whole idea of “base of operations” actually mean something. Repair/rearm/whatever is gonna mean concentration of capability and development of a fleet base (or bases) somewhere. Something that now must be cherished and defended.
“I don’t know what that logistics crap is that Marshal keeps talking about; but I want some of it!” E.J.King.
Ship damage is almost an order of magnitude more grainy than stock. Stock had four damage data fields; SysDam, FlotDam, EngDam, and Fires. AE has the same four, but also allocates a certain portion of FlotDam and EngDam as “major” damage.
Major Eng/FlotDam represents prop shafts bent or lost, turbine rooms trashed, bows/sterns blown off, ship girder strained, 20 foot holes in the hull next to Fire room #3, you know, little crap like that.
Didn’t implement “major” for SysDam, because there already was a Weaps/Dam algorithm that required a bit more than 2 gobs with a blowtorch to fix, so …
“Normal” damage can be repaired in a multitude of ways, some more, some less, quickly. “Major” damage requires “major” resources. You can pump out the water, but you can’t make a new bow.
ORIGINAL: JWE
Ship damage is almost an order of magnitude more grainy than stock. Stock had four damage data fields; SysDam, FlotDam, EngDam, and Fires. AE has the same four, but also allocates a certain portion of FlotDam and EngDam as “major” damage.
So this is the sort of thing that has taken so long? I seriously hope that you spent some of that time on things that aren't so cosmetic. That you spent some of that time working on stuff that actually needed fixed.
ORIGINAL: JWE
Ship damage is almost an order of magnitude more grainy than stock. Stock had four damage data fields; SysDam, FlotDam, EngDam, and Fires. AE has the same four, but also allocates a certain portion of FlotDam and EngDam as “major” damage.
So this is the sort of thing that has taken so long? I seriously hope that you spent some of that time on things that aren't so cosmetic. That you spent some of that time working on stuff that actually needed fixed.
Ya damn right. I worked on stuff I wanted to work on. You got a whine? I don't see your dick on the table.
ORIGINAL: JWE
Ship damage is almost an order of magnitude more grainy than stock. Stock had four damage data fields; SysDam, FlotDam, EngDam, and Fires. AE has the same four, but also allocates a certain portion of FlotDam and EngDam as “major” damage.
So this is the sort of thing that has taken so long? I seriously hope that you spent some of that time on things that aren't so cosmetic. That you spent some of that time working on stuff that actually needed fixed.
congrats on being an annoying 12 year old.
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What buffoonery. JWE and AE guys keep on keeping on and don't be distracted by the "Nattering nabobs of negativism". We are a niche audience but your efforts are appreciated.
ORIGINAL: thegreatwent
What buffoonery. JWE and AE guys keep on keeping on and don't be distracted by the "Nattering nabobs of negativism". We are a niche audience but your efforts are appreciated.
I'm part of that niche audience--all the way back to my original store bought copy of PacWar. I just can't believe they wasted effort on floatation damage. But you have a point--this is no time for second guessing. I'll save that for later.
ORIGINAL: JWE
Ship damage is almost an order of magnitude more grainy than stock. Stock had four damage data fields; SysDam, FlotDam, EngDam, and Fires. AE has the same four, but also allocates a certain portion of FlotDam and EngDam as “major” damage.
So this is the sort of thing that has taken so long? I seriously hope that you spent some of that time on things that aren't so cosmetic. That you spent some of that time working on stuff that actually needed fixed.
Ya damn right. I worked on stuff I wanted to work on. You got a whine? I don't see your dick on the table.
Well, tbh, I don't actually want to see his unit lying out on the table. [;)]
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ORIGINAL: thegreatwent
What buffoonery. JWE and AE guys keep on keeping on and don't be distracted by the "Nattering nabobs of negativism". We are a niche audience but your efforts are appreciated.
I'm part of that niche audience--all the way back to my original store bought copy of PacWar. I just can't believe they wasted effort on floatation damage. But you have a point--this is no time for second guessing. I'll save that for later.
Don't bother. No one is forcing you to buy or play the game.
Bugger! I've been sucked in. 3 minutes of my life that I can never get back. [8|]
ORIGINAL: thegreatwent
What buffoonery. JWE and AE guys keep on keeping on and don't be distracted by the "Nattering nabobs of negativism". We are a niche audience but your efforts are appreciated.
I'm part of that niche audience--all the way back to my original store bought copy of PacWar. I just can't believe they wasted effort on floatation damage. But you have a point--this is no time for second guessing. I'll save that for later.
No you won't. You've been bitching since the UV days.
"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown
ORIGINAL: thegreatwent
What buffoonery. JWE and AE guys keep on keeping on and don't be distracted by the "Nattering nabobs of negativism". We are a niche audience but your efforts are appreciated.
I'm part of that niche audience--all the way back to my original store bought copy of PacWar. I just can't believe they wasted effort on floatation damage. But you have a point--this is no time for second guessing. I'll save that for later.
you dont want flotation damage in a comprehensive pacific wargame?
have you thought that maybee this is the wrong game for you. something like hearts of iron would probobly be more up your alley
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you dont want flotation damage in a comprehensive pacific wargame?
have you thought that maybee this is the wrong game for you. something like hearts of iron would probobly be more up your alley
Have you ever actually played the game? It already has floatation damage.
I would estimate that I have played more turns of PW/UV/WITP, by an order of magnitude, than you ever will. It is, in fact, the only game I play.
yes i have but it was a long time ago. you indicated in your origional post that you wanted a less comprehensive war game that was the first one that came to mind.
and this is the only game that i play also. but you can go have a dick waving contest with someone else.
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