Unit Reorganization

[Obsolete]

I'm a bit puzzled over some of the units I see going under re-organization. I understand after getting a harsh shrashing, that these penalties should be laid out. But I'm getting them in really rediculous circumstances.

For example, every time I have a very, very, weakened opponent unit sourounded by very strong, powerful units, I tend to always get a bunch of units hitting the Re-Org penalty after the battle (if you can even call it a battle). This even occurs when I have all units set to minimize-losses.

I'm still stumped on how a thing should be possible. It just doesn't make sense. A single guy with a rifle can cause a bunch of attacking armies to re-organize every time?

[sPzAbt653]

Other things are involved like Unit Proficiency, Shock Levels, Formation Orders, etc. If it all isn't explained in the Scenario Briefing, it can be quite maddening trying to make plans without knowing what the unit capabilities and/or restrictions are. Which scenario are you on?

[Obsolete]

The scenarios I played were Kasserine, and the Israeli one from the original pack. I stave have trouble believing that my elite units would simply revert to so much re-organization when my battles are so heavily lop-sided in my favour.  Even the manual states this mostly happens due to taking major losses.  I thought this was some sort of bug with the game wrongfully attributing the re-org penalties to the opposite side.  Maybe it is, or maybe it's just a mechanic that isn't too well thought out.  It's like making a unit turn out into a route because it's moral is just too high, which doesn't quite make any sense no matter how you look at it.

If someone knows the mathematics behind this calculation then maybe I can figure out what in God's name is going on.

[damezzi]

Also have a look at your supply level. Sometimes you can just waste a lot of supply in ineffective attacks and it doesn't matter how good your units are if they are unsupplied (no ammo, no fuel etc). Supply affect readiness directly, since unsupplied units will recover readiness more slowly and unit's readiness can be no more than unit's supply level (when above the 33% minimum). Readiness is part of unit's quality calculations and low quality will increase your chance to break. Also have a look at which kind of equipment is part of each unit.
When I began playing Toaw, results sometimes looked arbitrary too, but after you understand the system it begins to make a lot of sense. It doesn't mean it doesn't have some flaws (and you won't find a flawless game), but the overall effect is consistent.
Consider that you can't just take the overall unit strengths as parameter to planning an attack.

Post some more details so that people here can make a better judgement.

[sPzAbt653]

Still not sure which scenario it is. 'Israel 48' by John Underwood?

One thing in this scenario that can happen, if the Israeli's capture the airfield north of Amman at hex 47,36, the Arabs can use chemical weapons, which may affect the Israeli units.

Another thing is the Formation Supply levels for most Israeli formations are 20% or less, meaning that their supply is difficult to recover, and along with that their readiness levels stay low as damezzi pointed out.

And another, most unit proficiencies are 100%, which has been described as being problematic. As there are only 158 units in the scenario, that could be changed easily enough if that is the cause of the problem. Of, course, the original design may have intended it to be this way.

[Obsolete]

Alright, I ran the scenario again, and same exact nonsense happens.

It seems the game definitely is getting confused on who is on what side after a battle.  For example, I took a very powerful and fresh unit from the Israel side, and used him to attack an utterly weak 1-1 Malitia unit.  A unit that was already in RETREAT mode.  As soon as I right clicked this fleeing & beatup & tiny unit, my mighty strong unit did an automatic bombard.  This IMMEDIATELY put my fresh unit into ROUTED mode. 

ROUTED?  I don't understand why every lopsided battle tends to constantly be penalizing me.  This HAS to be a bug by now.

I looked at the three variables.  After the bombardment, my elite unit still shows proficiency at 100%, readiness at 81%, and supply is at 72%  How in god's name does this keep happening?  Why would I be routed again?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  I find it impossible to believe a guy holding a single rifle can cause a whole veteran division to simply route on the battle-field.  I really just don't get what is going on?

It feels like any time I try to play WELL, by getting a battle-advantage I just get penalized for it.

[Obsolete]

Maybe the III vs II has something to do in this cause?  But I end to get this problem constantly..

[damezzi]

I have run the Israel 48 only to run combats between those two units. Most of the time I have got a retreat before combat with units of barely the same size of those in the image you show.
Supply symbols as shown on this image are for the arab forces, so I can't say if you are supplied.

Their air superiority is greater, so that you may be under bombardment or suffering interdiction. Anyway, even with the arabs in best terrain and supplied I was able to make them retreat before combat without breaking. Even when my units where in unsupplied condition, but notice that in such a condition the chances that the unit won't pass a quality check is greater.

If the arab unit retreated before combat you were not attacked by it (retreat before combat imposes a shot only against the retreating unit), so you can have been broken by interdiction from their air force or from disengagement if you were adjacent to an enemy unit (I can't tell from the image). Most probable is that the unit got interdicted while moving into the vacated hex.

1 1 strenght doesn't mean a single guy holding a rifle. Most of these units (in this scenario) are composed of more or less 13 squads, machine guns and mortars. The 5 10 are composed of more or less 50 squads. With those odds I've got a retreat before combat 100% of the times I tried without breaking, but in unfavorable conditions... it's not like a division against a single rifle.

I think that if Toaw had such a bug as inverting combat results (what is very drastic), that would have been noted years ago. 

[Obsolete]

Yes I understand 1-1 doesn't mean just 1 rifle exactly, but it's an abstraction from a more complex calculation.

As mentioned, I had over 70% supply for that unit, so I don't understand how supply can be an issue, unless you also need a supply chain ontop of supply?  I guess I still don't understand really how this is supposed to work.  I understand the basics, parking your units on roads, etc, for faster supply, etc. 

Another thing that gets my goat, is how I often DON'T want to move into a hex, I only want to attack, but when that bombard shot deal comes up, I have no choice but to watch my units run away from me and move into the vacated hex.  I really wish there was a change in that.

Anyhow, I guess I'll try and focus this week on the supply issue, till I know how it works inside and out.

[damezzi]

Don't plan attacks only based on the odds. Think of what a single machine gun nest and a little barbed wire on a fortified position on WWI could do with attackers. You must take into account deployment, supply, terrain, kind of weapon, proficiency, readiness, air support, artillery support, etc.

As to moving into the vacated hex after a retreat before combat, you're right. This has been already discussed here and I don't like it too.

[Rasputitsa]

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

I'm still stumped on how a thing should be possible. It just doesn't make sense. A single guy with a rifle can cause a bunch of attacking armies to re-organize every time?

The logic for this is that you ordered a 'bunch of attacking armies' after one guy with a rifle, who they quickly wipe out. Now you have all these troops, deployed for attack, who have to get back into order, get back in their trucks, etc.. You have so many troops re-organising because you sent so many troops on out on the mission. [:)]

[Hyding]

I've seen units in the real wprld lose much of their combat effectiveness and require reorganizing/maintenance after training exercises with ZERO opposition.

[Rasputitsa]

The skill is to use only as much force as is required for each mission and to leave other forces ready for other tasks, easy to say but very difficult to achieve. Military forces can be very brittle.

'Everything in war is very simple. But the simplest thing is difficult' - Karl Von Clausewitz. [:)]