Could Germany have defeated the USSR?

[Mus]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

This is an offshoot of a discussion in the War in the East forum. Basically the question is, could the Germans have defeated the Soviet Union in WW2? I'm inclined to believe the answer is "no". Well...with a possible exception. If the Germans had taken Moscow in '41 with Stalin in it maybe the Soviet Union would have collapsed and sued for peace. Otherwise it seems to me that Germany lacked the resources in manpower and material to fight a war with the USSR all the way through.

In this hypothetical do-over could Germany make ANY policy adjustment necessary to ensure victory?

If so, I believe they could have easily won. Discarded their racial disdain of Slavic peoples, cast themselves as the liberators of people suffering under the yoke of Communist oppression.

It really WAS a rotten edifice as Hitler claimed, the problem was the Nazis were so cruel and barbarous during Barbarossa that they drove many people who hated Communism and Communist rule to resist the Germans wholeheartedly.

So I guess Im saying that GERMANY could have defeated the Soviet Union. I dont think the Nazis could. The ideological/propaganda measures needed to have easily defeated the Soviets in 1941 would have made them not be Nazis as we know them.

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
Sorry if I misunderstood something. The post was rather cryptic toward the end. [&:]

No, Gary, it's not you. I was just taking one of my miserably inept stabs at the silliness of the post, that's all. And I doubt that the original was acute enough to aspire to anything approaching the complexity needed for "cryptic."

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: sulla05

Half of Lend Lease material came through Pacific ports in Soviet ships. So a drop in the Artic convoys could have made a large impact.

Do Remember too that stuff coming into Pacific ports had to be moved across Russia
so a cut in Atlantic route supplies and the time to move any from pacific ports would have had a great impact.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

I think the game is pretty well strapped with historical conditions. No USA entry is probably outside the scope of the game. Basically the question becomes, could Germany have defeated the USSR given existing historical constants. I don't think giving a 72 hour work week in '41 to the Germans is even in the scope of the game. Things like limited production and having to fight on two fronts are pretty much a given. Could Germany have defeated the USSR given those constraints?

My inclination is "no". Therefore a German player should not be capable of total victory in the game. The question becomes what should constitute victory for the German player. I think giving an instant victory objective like taking Moscow in '41 and maybe the oil fields in the Caucasus would make the game interesting and give the players something to desperately fight over. Simply fighting over who gets the most victory points in the end sort of seems tame to me.

No USA entry goes further then limiting supplies to USSR, without USA in.... there been likely No widespread Big Bomber bombing of germany with the b17...B29...b24...
so Germanys industries would been less crippled...


That Bombing had an effect... I would guess Grigsbys game has germany with shortages in production later in war to sim the effect of western allies bombings.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: sulla05

What I meant by my uboat statement was for Germany to not even worry about a surface navy. I never understood why the Germans even bothered with a surface fleet with the huge lead that Britain had. Think how many uboats you could make out of the Bismarck and Tirpitz. I'm saying that with a bit of tongue in cheek but you get my drift.

German Pocket battleships and such were meant for a breakout into the ocean and to raid convoys, never meant as a fleet to take on british etc combat surface forces.

Bismarck, etc actually concerned Britain as they could have wrecked damage on Convoys... or forced britain to use warships... Battleships etc to convoy..

Such warships would been greater vulnerable to Uboats... having to move at 10-15knts..

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico


The Germans wanted war with the US (a country they had a particularly low opinion of), they just lacked the fleet at the time. Japan's actions gave them an instant fleet.

At the time, the Germans felt this was a great coups. Hindsight shows it to be something less.

Yes... the idea Americans were mongrels, weak... etc...

Silly Hitler.... A nation that beat the british Empire...
for independence... Fought a nasty war between each in Civil war... Fought and beat the Mexicans... Fought and beat spain... Fought and helped beat Germany in WWI...
a Nation that was Huge... well out populationed Germany... had a TWO OCEAN navy...
and a great industrial base... Hitler just had no clue how the Car factories etc could convert to building tanks, trucks, jeeps etc..


I think there were germans who understood how dangerous USA was... but telling that to a megla manic insane person like hitler was to sign own death...

Oh and we were not "cultured" even British, Snobby french etc had impression americans weren't Cultured...because we gave up being ruled by kings and we made individualism a great thing... so we uncouth "savages" were not a threat... LOL...

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Culiacan Mexico

]The Germans wanted war with the US (a country they had a particularly low opinion of), they just lacked the fleet at the time. Japan's actions gave them an instant fleet.

At the time, the Germans felt this was a great coups. Hindsight shows it to be something less.

Hitler's action is usually cast as an impulsive act of irrationality and little else. One explanation given though is that he had received Intel that suggested strongly that Roosevelt was going to declare war on Germany within days of the declaration against Japan. Armed with this knowledge, Hitler opted to beat him to the punch figuring that war was going to happen regardless. Given that the US was openly aiding Germany's enemies with war material and that there was a more or less undeclared shooting war going on in the Atlantic, it doesn't end up being as irrational an act as at first glance. This doesn't mean I don't still consider it an error on Hitler's part, but I do also acknowledge that its a view based on hindsight.

What ultimately hurt the Axis far more than the protocols of war was the simple fact that the Axis Alliance was dysfunctional.

[DuckofTindalos]

So was the other Alliance. To an almost absurd degree.

[Nikademus]

If your referring to the Allies, i'd disagree. The Allied nations had their problems, but ultimately they were able to work together towards a common goal. (The western allies at least)

The Axis nation's essentially fought their own seperate wars and were defeated seperately.

[DuckofTindalos]

I do.

[ezzler]

[font="times new roman"]What I meant by my u-boat statement was for Germany to not even worry about a surface navy. I never understood why the Germans even bothered with a surface fleet with the huge lead that Britain had. Think how many u-boats you could make out of the Bismarck and Tirpitz. I'm saying that with a bit of tongue in cheek but you get my drift.[/font]

You need to remember the German fleet was given the go ahead as priority of all the services in 1937/8. Germany hoped to form proper military alliances with Italy and Japan. Then the Royal Navy and French Navy would have a big problem.
The RN could not have fought Japan,Italy and Germany successfully after the fall of France.  Not saying that the Germans shouldn't have concentrated on U-Boats but they were planning for a surface ship, blockade breaking, commerce raiding war with their allies.
Imagine the real horror felt by the RN the day of Pearl Harbour when they realised that they had to patrol the worlds oceans , having just lost the US pacific fleet. The nightmare scenario that they had been warning about since Japan ceased being an ally.

The other point to the German navy is it was not necessarily being built to fight the British or French. It needed to be large enough only to beat the Poles and the Soviet Baltic fleet and keep the sea lanes to Norway and Sweden and Finland open.

[Cmdrcain]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Hitler's action is usually cast as an impulsive act of irrationality and little else. One explanation given though is that he had received Intel that suggested strongly that Roosevelt was going to declare war on Germany within days of the declaration against Japan. Armed with this knowledge, Hitler opted to beat him to the punch figuring that war was going to happen regardless. Given that the US was openly aiding Germany's enemies with war material and that there was a more or less undeclared shooting war going on in the Atlantic, it doesn't end up being as irrational an act as at first glance. This doesn't mean I don't still consider it an error on Hitler's part, but I do also acknowledge that its a view based on hindsight.

What ultimately hurt the Axis far more than the protocols of war was the simple fact that the Axis Alliance was dysfunctional.

I'd say if that were true then Hitler and Germans really had no clue as to how our Govt really worked.

Roosevelt could have ASKED for a declaration but only CONGRESS cab declare a war.

The idea Roosevelt was all himself able to declare war if hitler thought that (and probably did...cause being a dictator he would think the man in charge could do like he did)

If so Hitler did not grasp that Roosevelt would have had to ASK for it and with the angry mood vs japan, not necessary a sure thing, if Hitler had been smart he would have denounced the attk while USA was at peace... lessening the possibility that Congresws would go along with Roosevelt request

I still think it would not been a sure thing in those times...
yes USA was helping Britain because there were americans that
backed doing so, but there was both a rage and a fear due to Japans action, fear especially on west coast.

So Congress might have rebuffed Roosevelt deciding since japan had actually attacked USA, the priority should be there and a request might have backfired in that congress might have after rebuffing passed legislation to ensure war materials went to fighting Japan...basically could have curtailed help to britain.


Hitlers action.... was the greatest gift to the allies, I think Churchill said something when hitler did it sorta like "we will win now for sure or such in some other words but Hitlers action instantly gave Roosevelt the ability to fully go vs germany and do his germany first.


Hitler basically ensured Germanys defeat.