The reality was by 1943 the final outcome was given (and at that time the resistance movements in the ocupied nations startet gaining lots of recruits). By that time Sweden was in no threat of being invaded. In other words - it was not likely to be fear of invasion, that fueled the Swedes desire to sell Iron - more likely it was money - and by the time they stopped selling to Germany, I'm betting the alies pressured Sweden to do so.
Germany had a plan to invade Sweden as late as the summer 1943. For several reasons the plan was cancelled and the invasion forces withdrawn. In 1944 Hitler demanded an attack on Sweden but was eventually talked out of it. Instead they planned to launch v-1 and v-2 rockets spring 44. It was eventually decided that other targets should get resourses first. In 1945 the plan to fire terror weapons on Sweden was once again activated by order from OKW. When Germany surrendered preparations to launch the rockets on Sweden were on the way.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
But did the Swedes know that the Germans had those plans? And even if they did have those plans, did they really have the capacity to carry them out?
Maybe this discussion should move to one of the minor country threads unless it moves back to what was initially discussed: lend-lease to USSR being shipped through neutral countries (this being the USSR AIO thread and all).
I think a lot of countries around the world declared for the Allies late in the game because it was let known that this would have something to do with setting up the United Nations?
As for AI for the USSR in MWiF, I will always think the same thing. In 1941, run like hell. Trade units only for railing a blue factory and nothing else. Keep the tanks and HQs out of Axis fighter range and under the three fighters the Russians can move each impulse; never even fly those planes until the 4th Russian impulse at least. Don't spend on any other planes until 1942, just more and more ground units, and not the worthless MIL. Just keep the mobile core of the Red Army intact and in front of the Germans; turn to fight at the Volga, the Caucasus, and the Arctic ports; make Leningrad, Rostov, and the Crimea into the toughest hexes you can with winterized units and ski divisions. Get the Allies to send everything they can. Don't be proud; run Josef, run. Playing a 1941 Barbarossa game is one of the most fun ways to go in WiF....lots of high tension mobile activity all through the war, and less of the double line slugfests that get dull.
ORIGINAL: Orm
Germany had a plan to invade Sweden as late as the summer 1943. For several reasons the plan was cancelled and the invasion forces withdrawn. In 1944 Hitler demanded an attack on Sweden but was eventually talked out of it. Instead they planned to launch v-1 and v-2 rockets spring 44. It was eventually decided that other targets should get resourses first. In 1945 the plan to fire terror weapons on Sweden was once again activated by order from OKW. When Germany surrendered preparations to launch the rockets on Sweden were on the way.
ORIGINAL: composer99
But did the Swedes know that the Germans had those plans? And even if they did have those plans, did they really have the capacity to carry them out?
Good question C99. Also, did Germany have these contingency plans for tons of countries, like current governments do now? I mean any country with a decent upper echelon military has contingency plans.
ORIGINAL: Orm
Germany had a plan to invade Sweden as late as the summer 1943. For several reasons the plan was cancelled and the invasion forces withdrawn. In 1944 Hitler demanded an attack on Sweden but was eventually talked out of it. Instead they planned to launch v-1 and v-2 rockets spring 44. It was eventually decided that other targets should get resourses first. In 1945 the plan to fire terror weapons on Sweden was once again activated by order from OKW. When Germany surrendered preparations to launch the rockets on Sweden were on the way.
ORIGINAL: composer99
But did the Swedes know that the Germans had those plans? And even if they did have those plans, did they really have the capacity to carry them out?
Good question C99. Also, did Germany have these contingency plans for tons of countries, like current governments do now? I mean any country with a decent upper echelon military has contingency plans.
AND I think that the Russia AIO should be good...
[X(]
Sweden listened to German signal traffic from Germany to Norway and was aware of the plans. Both -42 and -43 the Swedish military had increased its readiness just before the planned attack was to launch. Some belive that the reason the 1942 attack was cancelled because Germany realized that with the increased Swedish readiness additional forces would be required. Midsummer 1943 Swedish supreme command send out an alert "Be alert! Be prepared! German invasion imminent!"
-Orm
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
A government is a body of people; usually, notably, ungoverned. - Quote from Firefly
More suggestions for Naval setups.
Option A Black Sea Build up
USSR Naval Setup Global War.
Baltic Sea Fleet and 2 submarines, Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet and transport, Sevastapol
2 submarines Vladivostok
Option B Far East Build up, Put Japan on notice
Baltic Sea Fleet Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet and transport, Sevastapol
4 submarines Vladivostok
Option C Baltic Sea Build up, possible winter war
Baltic Sea Fleet 2 submarines and transport, Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet, Sevastapol
2 submarines Vladivostok
Option D
waiting for comments [:)]
convoy point deployment options
Option A
3 Caspian Sea, For ensuring oil in case rail line is cut
Option B
1 Caspian Sea, 1 Black Sea, 1 Baltic Sea with use of Limited Overseas Supply option.
Maybe someone can refresh my memory about the USSR's, chances of getting convoy points from the Baltic states.
Option A Black Sea Build up
USSR Naval Setup Global War.
Baltic Sea Fleet and 2 submarines, Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet and transport, Sevastapol
2 submarines Vladivostok
Option B Far East Build up, Put Japan on notice
Baltic Sea Fleet Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet and transport, Sevastapol
4 submarines Vladivostok
Option C Baltic Sea Build up, possible winter war
Baltic Sea Fleet 2 submarines and transport, Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet, Sevastapol
2 submarines Vladivostok
Option D
waiting for comments [:)]
convoy point deployment options
Option A
3 Caspian Sea, For ensuring oil in case rail line is cut
Option B
1 Caspian Sea, 1 Black Sea, 1 Baltic Sea with use of Limited Overseas Supply option.
Maybe someone can refresh my memory about the USSR's, chances of getting convoy points from the Baltic states.
Option A Black Sea Build up
USSR Naval Setup Global War.
Baltic Sea Fleet and 2 submarines, Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet and transport, Sevastapol
2 submarines Vladivostok
Option B Far East Build up, Put Japan on notice
Baltic Sea Fleet Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet and transport, Sevastapol
4 submarines Vladivostok
Option C Baltic Sea Build up, possible winter war
Baltic Sea Fleet 2 submarines and transport, Leningrad
Black Sea Fleet, Sevastapol
2 submarines Vladivostok
Option D
waiting for comments [:)]
convoy point deployment options
Option A
3 Caspian Sea, For ensuring oil in case rail line is cut
Option B
1 Caspian Sea, 1 Black Sea, 1 Baltic Sea with use of Limited Overseas Supply option.
Maybe someone can refresh my memory about the USSR's, chances of getting convoy points from the Baltic states.
Probability = Zero.
The Russian TRS in the Black Sea is what makes the most sense. It is a closed sea, so it won't suffer from enemy navies, plus it may allow to put Russian units in Ukraine in supply, or extract some, or reinforce. This is the most effective place.
In the Baltic it is useless for the whole war, unless an operation in Finland is planned.
As for the CP, I would advise having one in the Caspian for shipping oil to USSR in case the Caucasus is injeopardy, having one in the Black Sea, and one in the Murmansk / Archangelsk, to start the Arctic Circle convoys. One in the Baltic can be built in the future, but the need for supply / resource transportation in the Baltic is nearly sure of not arising before 1944 / 1945, unless something is planned in Finland.
Russian operations in Finland are a rare occurence, I never saw one in 20 games, but the Russian AIO has to be variable.
I like one CP in the Baltic for an increased threat against Finland if and when you demand the Borderlands, and lately I have come around to wanting that in each game to help protect the Murmansk rail line.
One in the Black Sea is always definite. I think I prefer a second one too as there are just so many potential uses for one, especially with limited overseas supply.
One in the Arctic is also nice, can keep the entire White Sea coastline in supply, important as you battle for that rail line.
And the Caspian is very important; I even put the CA starting on the production circle in the Caspian when it arrives - handy for combat around Teheran, and to help protect the oil convoys.
So how do you cover all these important uses? I set up two in the Black and one in the Baltic. Then I build 3-5 new ones. It is hard to choose this since you urgently need land units, but a 3-4 CP line in the Caspian can really pay off after the Panzers break free (at least until the Italian air force shows up on the shoreline).
Russian ops in Finland are indeed rare, but if you don't have enough oomph behind the demand for the Borderlands, the German player just might take the likely -2 USE hit. One can't just demand them and expect a standard acceptance. Japan would certainly cheer when such a war starts. For the Russians a German refusal is OK, since the goal is to push back the borders away from Leningrad and the Murmansk rail line, and that is easily achievable even if war with Finland continues until war with Germany. But losing 2 USE Chits might make the play of USE Option 30 or 31, Lend-Lease to USSR, get delayed a couple turns.
As I promised Steve to go through all the forums post of all AI for MWiF – XXX, here is the result for USSR. A few good suggestions from forum members. I have now compiled it to define 6 possible starting convoy routes for the Russian, from which the AIO will chose from.
Since the USSR often has a long time to prepare for war the reserve convoy placements is often as interesting than any convoy that start at sea, I have include that in the setup.
Note, if any more reserve convoy placements are assigned to Astrakhan, they should be placed directly in the Caspian Sea.
As always if you have any comments about these convoy routes, we would love to hear them. If nothing else, you could help us decide on their probabilities.
Route 2: Black Sea.
Might be useful if planning to attack Rumania/Bulgaria. 2 CP in reserves.
reserve convoy placements %
A) Leningrad:1 CP Astrakhan:1 CP 20%
B) Leningrad:1 CP Archangel:1 CP 20%
C) Archangel:1 CP Astrakhan:1 CP 50%
D) Astrakhan:2 CP 5%
E) Archangel:2 CP 5%
Route 3: Baltic Sea.
Might be useful if planning to attack Finland/Denmark. 2 CP in reserve.
reserve convoy placements %
A) Sevastopol:1 CP Astrakhan:1 CP 20%
B) Sevastopol:1 CP Archangel:1 CP 20%
C) Archangel:1 CP Astrakhan:1 CP 50%
D) Astrakhan:2 CP 5%
E) Archangel:2 CP 5%
Route 4: Caspian Sea and Black Sea.
Might be useful if planning to attack Persia and Rumania/Bulgaria. 1 CP in reserve.
reserve convoy placements %
A) Leningrad:1 CP 30%
B) Archangel:1 CP 60%
C) Astrakhan 1 CP 10%
Route 5: Caspian Sea and Baltic Sea.
Might be useful if planning to attack Persia and Finland/Denmark. 1 CP in reserve.
reserve convoy placements %
A) Sevastopol:1 CP 30%
B) Archangel:1 CP 60%
C) Astrakhan 1 CP 10%
Route 6: None.
Might be useful to keep you CP in port in order to look less aggressive and it also slightly reduce the risk profile during a sudden axis declaration of war. 3 CP in reserve.
So with the recent re-play of an historically timed Winter War in MWiF, I've been thinking about the Russian AI and a Demand for the Borderlands. I think the question of this basic decision has only been discussed in passing in this thread for the most part. I've been trying to figure out how to shore up the Russians during a 1941 Barbarossa backed by a lot of Italian air, which is a very, very dangerous strategy for the Allies to handle; they should consider this possibility carefully until the fall of 1940 and German intentions are finally known for sure. I have decided the Russians will need to do everything they can to get two factories to Murmansk, and a major way to help that goal is to demand the Finnish Borderlands.
So how do you go about doing that? For me, an historical attempt in 1939 is right out. The biggest downside of all to demanding the Borderlands is possibly losing two US Entry chits, and those are too valuable in 1939, plus the weather will probably be atrocious.
Now, since your real goal is to keep the Axis away from the rail line to Murmansk for just the first turn of war, it works out OK for the Russians to go to full war with the Finns. I would probably definitely make a point of taking a non-Borderland hex so the war could never end. It will then be somewhat unlikely that the Axis can threaten the rail line as they will mostly be in the south defending Helsinki, and the few that aren't can probably be contained easily by cavalry divisions cutting their supply and this just about guarantees the safety of the rail lines. No one says you have to attempt to go all the way to Helsinki.
I looked at Christopher's set-ups back on page 6 or so of this thread, and I think it is do-able to defend the rail line for 2 impulses. The units up there are safe from the air assault on the main front, and I think the Russians do have enough of them; I only commit enough units in Byelorussia and the Ukraine to get the factories out while the rest of the army retreats steadily.
Thus I have come around to wanting to demand the Borderlands in May/Jun of 1940, or perhaps Jul/Aug when you will have the best possible weather. Also in those turns the Germans will be less likely to spare a Combined impulse to send in some peacekeepers, or it will at least hinder them a little in France. All of the Russian planes should be nearby, with some divisions along the shore of the Baltic and Timoshenko somewhere in Karelia to threaten to take a non-Borderlands hex or even the Finnish resource. If the Germans decide to fight, you will need all of your offensive assets; if the threat is heavy enough they might cede the Borderlands without a fight.
So for me the largest question of all goes back to if the risk of losing two USE chits is worth it. To me, it is, but the possible delay in playing US Option 30, Lend-Lease to USSR, makes me think really hard. The Japanese can shut down the potential lend-lease routes in the Far East and even in Persia, irrespective of Russian decisions. Routes through the non-Persian Middle East are also potentially vulnerable to Axis activity, though if the Italians are dedicated to building an air force for Russia, these should be a bit safer, but limited to what can come from India - 2 BPs and some resources. Really the Russians need both routes going to survive past the critical summer of 1942, given a full Barbarossa with lots of Italian support. One problem is that in 1940 you don't know yet if the Axis is planning this.
[And I think as Germany I would just always make the Russians fight and take the USE gains for the good of the entire Axis and their long-term survival.]
So, what have you been thinking lately about a demand for the Finnish Borderlands?
So with the recent re-play of an historically timed Winter War in MWiF, I've been thinking about the Russian AI and a Demand for the Borderlands. I think the question of this basic decision has only been discussed in passing in this thread for the most part. I've been trying to figure out how to shore up the Russians during a 1941 Barbarossa backed by a lot of Italian air, which is a very, very dangerous strategy for the Allies to handle; they should consider this possibility carefully until the fall of 1940 and German intentions are finally known for sure. I have decided the Russians will need to do everything they can to get two factories to Murmansk, and a major way to help that goal is to demand the Finnish Borderlands.
So how do you go about doing that? For me, an historical attempt in 1939 is right out. The biggest downside of all to demanding the Borderlands is possibly losing two US Entry chits, and those are too valuable in 1939, plus the weather will probably be atrocious.
Now, since your real goal is to keep the Axis away from the rail line to Murmansk for just the first turn of war, it works out OK for the Russians to go to full war with the Finns. I would probably definitely make a point of taking a non-Borderland hex so the war could never end. It will then be somewhat unlikely that the Axis can threaten the rail line as they will mostly be in the south defending Helsinki, and the few that aren't can probably be contained easily by cavalry divisions cutting their supply and this just about guarantees the safety of the rail lines. No one says you have to attempt to go all the way to Helsinki.
I looked at Christopher's set-ups back on page 6 or so of this thread, and I think it is do-able to defend the rail line for 2 impulses. The units up there are safe from the air assault on the main front, and I think the Russians do have enough of them; I only commit enough units in Byelorussia and the Ukraine to get the factories out while the rest of the army retreats steadily.
Thus I have come around to wanting to demand the Borderlands in May/Jun of 1940, or perhaps Jul/Aug when you will have the best possible weather. Also in those turns the Germans will be less likely to spare a Combined impulse to send in some peacekeepers, or it will at least hinder them a little in France. All of the Russian planes should be nearby, with some divisions along the shore of the Baltic and Timoshenko somewhere in Karelia to threaten to take a non-Borderlands hex or even the Finnish resource. If the Germans decide to fight, you will need all of your offensive assets; if the threat is heavy enough they might cede the Borderlands without a fight.
So for me the largest question of all goes back to if the risk of losing two USE chits is worth it. To me, it is, but the possible delay in playing US Option 30, Lend-Lease to USSR, makes me think really hard. The Japanese can shut down the potential lend-lease routes in the Far East and even in Persia, irrespective of Russian decisions. Routes through the non-Persian Middle East are also potentially vulnerable to Axis activity, though if the Italians are dedicated to building an air force for Russia, these should be a bit safer, but limited to what can come from India - 2 BPs and some resources. Really the Russians need both routes going to survive past the critical summer of 1942, given a full Barbarossa with lots of Italian support. One problem is that in 1940 you don't know yet if the Axis is planning this.
[And I think as Germany I would just always make the Russians fight and take the USE gains for the good of the entire Axis and their long-term survival.]
So, what have you been thinking lately about a demand for the Finnish Borderlands?
