AI for MWiF-Italy

[peskpesk]

Italian entry options 39-40.


A) 39-40 Strategy Threaten CW
1) Delay DOW Allies.
2) Threaten Egypt (4 corps) to keep the BEF in France small
3) If the CW brings units out of the Middle East and puts them in France DOW the CW and attack Egypt.
4) Attack Malta if possible


B) 39-40 Strategy Delay until France falls.
1) DOW CW when France is about fall.
2) Attack Malta (using surprise impulse) if possible
3) Ship forces to Libya and attack Egypt
4) Hit CW at sea

C) 39 Strategy Early entry, full naval war.
1) DOW France and CW on Impulse 3(using surprise impulse) hit CW at sea.
2) Port strike French navy if possible
3) Cheap shot the allied convoys with subs(in cooperation with German Kriegsmarine operations) and attack CW fleet when possible. Avoid meeting both France and CW navies.
4) Attack Italian/French border when Germany begins the offensive against France

D) 39-40 Strategy Early entry DOW France only.
1) Attack Italian/French border (Use Shore bombardment and surprise) if possible
2) Go after Tunisia, Algeria & Morocco
3) Invade Syria
4) Port strike French navy if possible

E) 39-40 Strategy Early entry DOW CW only, limited naval war.
1) DOW CW on after he has committed navy.
2) Attack Malta (using surprise impulse) if possible
3) Hit CW at sea
4) Attack Cyprus
5) Look for a good surprise attack on France.( Be wary of one too)


F) 40 Strategy Normal entry.
1) DOW CW and France when Germany begins the offensive against France.
2) Ground strike French units (using surprise impulse) with your 2 long range LNDs.
3) Attack Malta (using surprise impulse) if possible
4) Attack Italian/French border If possible

Always take hard look at Gibraltar

/Peter

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Ahh, I see that you are correct. The better for Italy when the problem is gone and a big curse to my gaming group for letting us play it wrong!

Allies must be crazy then for I have many times seen them declare war on Morocco, Algeria & Tunisia or Syria. And it's so nice to slip in German troops to the defence.

Obviously, there are also good reasons to DoW Vichy, but the allies are in control of that, I mean if they see that they can be countered by the Axis sending troops in Marghreb with a German HQ, they can avoid DoWing. The conquest of Magrheb is quick normaly, so it can be done anyway the Allies sees that the Axis can't counter them this way.

[brian brian]

to build or not to build an Italian CV is a glass half-full or glass half-empty question. I like to have one to help the Japanese defend the seaward approaches to the Middle East, with only Suez in Axis hands and Gibraltar sealed off as much as possible by land-based air. An independent CV group in the Indian Ocean can be a big help to the Japanese as the Axis try to wring a few more turns out of the oil-fields before Uncle Sam shows up.

[Mitchellvitch]

to build or not to build an Italian CV is a glass half-full or glass half-empty question. I like to have one to help the Japanese defend the seaward approaches to the Middle East, with only Suez in Axis hands and Gibraltar sealed off as much as possible by land-based air. An independent CV group in the Indian Ocean can be a big help to the Japanese as the Axis try to wring a few more turns out of the oil-fields before Uncle Sam shows up.

I would argue that the Italian navy can't really function effectively even in the Med. without at least one carrier, given their lack of long range fighters. The two box just isn't good enough in most cases, and German long range fighters have other fish to fry.

That said, they do tend to get sunk rather quickly, or to spend a lot of time in the repair pool.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Mitchellvitch

to build or not to build an Italian CV is a glass half-full or glass half-empty question. I like to have one to help the Japanese defend the seaward approaches to the Middle East, with only Suez in Axis hands and Gibraltar sealed off as much as possible by land-based air. An independent CV group in the Indian Ocean can be a big help to the Japanese as the Axis try to wring a few more turns out of the oil-fields before Uncle Sam shows up.

I would argue that the Italian navy can't really function effectively even in the Med. without at least one carrier, given their lack of long range fighters. The two box just isn't good enough in most cases, and German long range fighters have other fish to fry.

That said, they do tend to get sunk rather quickly, or to spend a lot of time in the repair pool.

Well, most true, but IMO impossible to solve.
If the Italians build 1 CV to cover their fleet in the 3 or 4 box, their CV will get slaughtered and their fleet too by the British CV who are a lot more numerous.
If the Italians don't build a CV to cover their fleet in the 3 or 4 box, it means that they can't safely sail here, so they are stuck to the 1 and 2 boxes.
So they have the choice of using BPs in a CV that will most of the time die at its first confrontation, or use BPs in building FTRs and NAVs that will cover them efficiently in the 1 or 2 box, but meaning that their shore bombardment will be severely reduced (but still able to double the notional factor of an invaded hex).

I think that this is a no brainer, and that if they have no Indian Ocean or Atlantic Ocean ambitions, that is if they did not take Suez or Gibraltar, this is an absolute waste of BPs to ue BPs on CVs.

Italy is tight in its BP spending, they have so much to buy with so small income. They need to use their BP efficiently.

[composer99]

The Axis can sort of do without FTR cover at sea in 39-40 while the CW has few carriers and their air-to-sea factors are weak, as long as they have the NAV search bonuses.
 
Once the Allies have scads of NAVs, their long-range fighters, and lots of good carrier air then it's a different story altogether, of course.

[UngainlyFool]

I would agree. The Italian Nav makes the navy competative in the med for a while. One CV isn't going to help above and beyond that, especially if the navy is being used to guerrilla vulnerable targets in individual sea areas.

The quality of the italian CV's makes it a BP sink for the most part in my opinion.

The CV in the Indian Ocean may also tie the Italian action to Combined or Naval as well to stay in Japanese support. It may be crucial to do that Air action just when the CV will be the most vulnerable.

[Mitchellvitch]

On a different note, in most of the games I've played, Italy is forced into a declaration of war against the Commonwealth in 40 - Basically the Royal Navy parks a carrier force off the Italian coast and threatens a massive surprise port attack on the Italian fleet, leaving the Italians little option but to declare war to avoid the damage.

Of course this would cost US entry points, but can Italy really risk it?

Should the AI be aware of this?

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mitchellvitch

On a different note, in most of the games I've played, Italy is forced into a declaration of war against the Commonwealth in 40 - Basically the Royal Navy parks a carrier force off the Italian coast and threatens a massive surprise port attack on the Italian fleet, leaving the Italians little option but to declare war to avoid the damage.

Of course this would cost US entry points, but can Italy really risk it?

Should the AI be aware of this?

Yes. And for playing either Italy or the CW.

[brian brian]

so in the Pipe Dreams thread we have been kicking Italy around. also just lately I have put a few hours into a solitaire CyberBoard game I have been playing, which has reached M/J 42 of late. the Axis went with a 41 'Barbarossa, pure-air-Italian-build strategy. (OK maybe they started a TRS too). the Russians attacked Persia and Japan intervened, simultaneously launching war in Siberia. (when playing solitaire one of the most difficult decisions is how to conduct Japanese/Russian relations, so in this game I went with a Russian Persian intervention + Japanese DoW. I do not think this is a good Russian strategy, as it opens a lucrative door to Japan, but I wanted to see what happened with that when facing a nearly maximized Italian air force and a war with Japan). the Germans should be able to align Turkey by late Jul/Aug 42 or Sep/Oct at the latest. (The Italian air strategy is indeed difficult for the Russians to handle....they hold Leningrad, Murmansk, and Archangel, losing an HQ-I and two ARM in the process along with the usual horrendous infantry losses. All but 3 facories made it east, but the Germans should be firmly established on the west bank of the Volga soon and perhaps crossing it in Jul/Aug.

so I didn't see it coming really but this situation has opened up an interesting question for the Axis....what to do about the Middle East in the middle of the game? I'm thinking about building the two Italian HQ-I's and sending them across the straits at Istanbul to campaign around some. (oh yes, what have the CW been doing? they simultaneously built a Japanese defense and a Russian pipeline to Murmansk. They invested in a Free French Indo-China and a strong force in Singapore of a land/4 Fort, two white-print infantry, and the Royal Engineers, in addition to several cheap infantry in Burma and garrisons in Suez and Aden. the Russian support has been slow as US Entry is severely lagging, only playing Lend-Lease BPs to Russia in Mar/Apr 42, with the Japanese about to launch war in May/Jun. The CW has also been setting up to take Iraq with HQs in Kuwait and mobile forces poised on the Vichy Syrian border...but this is in jeapordy due to the imminent arrival of the IJN in the Indian Ocean.

so perhaps the Italian-Air-Barbarossa strategy does have a big payoff for Italy as the Axis opens a route to the Arab oil thanks to all those planes bombing the poor Russians... ???

[Gurggulk]

Italian Naval Deployment
 
Without Limited Overseas Supply option
Option A
1 Convoy point Italian Coast
All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia
 
Option B
With Limited Overseas Supply option
1 convoy point each in Italian Coast, East Med
All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Gurggulk


Italian Naval Deployment

Without Limited Overseas Supply option
Option A
1 Convoy point Italian Coast
All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia

Option B
With Limited Overseas Supply option
1 convoy point each in Italian Coast, East Med
All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia

I want to thank you for these. This is one of the things that Peter is currently working on for the AIO.

[Gurggulk]

Thanks Shannon,
Doing these setups are helping me to reaquaint myself with the game. Which is a good thing. [8D]
 
With all the people adding their preferences, it should make for a strong choice of options for the AI. At least the setup should not be to predictable.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Gurggulk
Italian Naval Deployment

Without Limited Overseas Supply option
Option A
1 Convoy point Italian Coast
All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia

Option B
With Limited Overseas Supply option
1 convoy point each in Italian Coast, East Med
All transports, Surface Ships, Subs and Convoys, LaSpezia

Initialy Italy is neutral, and can hope to stay so at least for 4 turns.
In that case, I would suggest that reserve CP (5) and TRS (2) be spread out between Major Ports of Italy, such as La Spezia, Trieste, Tarente, and maybe Naples.

The reason is Italian navy is initialy vulnerable to surprise port attack from CW forces, and avoiding having both TRS and all reserve CP in the same port seems wise to me.

Moreover, neutral ships sail one by one (limited by the Combined action naval limits, which is 1 for Italy), so the TRS and or CP can only sail alone.

To prevent nasty surprises from blockading enemy ships later when war comes, I'd advise having 2-3 cruisers setup with each of the spread out TRS & CP.

[morgil]

Just read through this old thread and got a few pointers...

In the start of the game, Italy should focus on defending against a French or CW DOW, that would enable them to put 4 corps into Italy or Albania.
This is easily done with a unit in Tirana, Palermo/Syracuse and stuffing the rest on the French border.
Imagine youre going for an early Greece with Italy, only to have the french walk across the border, align Yougoslavia, and then knock out Vienna, Bratislava and Trieste just for fun.
Heavily on the French border will also divert French units from the front against Germany.
Watching the US entry, should give you a good inclination on when its "safe" to send a TRS to pick up your units i Ethiopia, but only send one at the time, as the brits are known to gamble over such a sweet prize.

As Italy you would want to join the fun asap, for the brotherly love from Germany, but you would want to delay it as much as possible to avoid the tougher "love" of the CW fleet, and US entry. If the WAllies make obvious mistakes, like undefended french border, Malta and/or Gibraltar, you hop to it regardless of the Senates mumblings.

You would also very much like to align Yougoslavia youreself, by taking out Greece, but I'm not sure that the benefits to that outweighs the downsides.
Consider US entering the war, and going for a quick kill of Italy, they will accieve it. Then they look at the map, all the invasion forces available is in Italian Coast, and umm the dragon has more soft underbelly, that leads to Bulgaria, and 3 more hexes to the oilfields in Romania.
It is usually better to just kill of Price Paul right away.

[brian brian]

I like the Italian option of breaking down the MTN corps on set up to generate a 2-3 MTN division for improved landing forces to begin a campaign against Algeria, or the Eastern Med. There is a lot to be gained by an early Italian DoW. But then staying neutral and keeping the high-value 1939 USE chits from being pulled is also smart.

The Allies have these same choices of course. I have never been able to decide how to set-up the Italian navy in anticipation of Allied port strikes. All together in one port raises the target profile a lot, especially with the CLs in play. Lately I have settled on the two TRS together with the 9 best AA ships in one port, and all the rest of the ships in another. As the target profile goes up, the AA value on a surprise impulse does not increase in columns on the naval tables very well, due to the 1/2 value on surprise.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: morgil

Just read through this old thread and got a few pointers...

In the start of the game, Italy should focus on defending against a French or CW DOW, that would enable them to put 4 corps into Italy or Albania.
This is easily done with a unit in Tirana, Palermo/Syracuse and stuffing the rest on the French border.
Imagine youre going for an early Greece with Italy, only to have the french walk across the border, align Yougoslavia, and then knock out Vienna, Bratislava and Trieste just for fun.
Heavily on the French border will also divert French units from the front against Germany.
Watching the US entry, should give you a good inclination on when its "safe" to send a TRS to pick up your units i Ethiopia, but only send one at the time, as the brits are known to gamble over such a sweet prize.

As Italy you would want to join the fun asap, for the brotherly love from Germany, but you would want to delay it as much as possible to avoid the tougher "love" of the CW fleet, and US entry. If the WAllies make obvious mistakes, like undefended french border, Malta and/or Gibraltar, you hop to it regardless of the Senates mumblings.

You would also very much like to align Yougoslavia youreself, by taking out Greece, but I'm not sure that the benefits to that outweighs the downsides.
Consider US entering the war, and going for a quick kill of Italy, they will accieve it. Then they look at the map, all the invasion forces available is in Italian Coast, and umm the dragon has more soft underbelly, that leads to Bulgaria, and 3 more hexes to the oilfields in Romania.
It is usually better to just kill of Price Paul right away.

As the German player there is nothing I would rather see than France committing 6 or so land units to the Italian front. If things got desperate for Italy, I'd just rail move a garrison (or two) into Milan and let France chew on those for a while.

I had this discussion recently with Peter about setting up the French units, and I am quite firm in my opinion that France should look to its own defenses first. Once Paris falls, all those French units in Italy will go away. Now if Germany attacks the USSR in 1939, that's another story, ...

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: morgil

Just read through this old thread and got a few pointers...

In the start of the game, Italy should focus on defending against a French or CW DOW, that would enable them to put 4 corps into Italy or Albania.
This is easily done with a unit in Tirana, Palermo/Syracuse and stuffing the rest on the French border.
Imagine youre going for an early Greece with Italy, only to have the french walk across the border, align Yougoslavia, and then knock out Vienna, Bratislava and Trieste just for fun.
Heavily on the French border will also divert French units from the front against Germany.
Watching the US entry, should give you a good inclination on when its "safe" to send a TRS to pick up your units i Ethiopia, but only send one at the time, as the brits are known to gamble over such a sweet prize.

As Italy you would want to join the fun asap, for the brotherly love from Germany, but you would want to delay it as much as possible to avoid the tougher "love" of the CW fleet, and US entry. If the WAllies make obvious mistakes, like undefended french border, Malta and/or Gibraltar, you hop to it regardless of the Senates mumblings.

You would also very much like to align Yougoslavia youreself, by taking out Greece, but I'm not sure that the benefits to that outweighs the downsides.
Consider US entering the war, and going for a quick kill of Italy, they will accieve it. Then they look at the map, all the invasion forces available is in Italian Coast, and umm the dragon has more soft underbelly, that leads to Bulgaria, and 3 more hexes to the oilfields in Romania.
It is usually better to just kill of Price Paul right away.

As the German player there is nothing I would rather see than France committing 6 or so land units to the Italian front. If things got desperate for Italy, I'd just rail move a garrison (or two) into Milan and let France chew on those for a while.

I had this discussion recently with Peter about setting up the French units, and I am quite firm in my opinion that France should look to its own defenses first. Once Paris falls, all those French units in Italy will go away. Now if Germany attacks the USSR in 1939, that's another story, ...

As Germany I have on a few occasions when France lightly defended the Italian border ordered Italy to attack into France. Germany then reinforces the attack. With the mountain line breached you can begin the move towards Paris from the south. I have even captured Paris from the south when the German main offencive was stopped.

If the mountain line is breached early Germany/Italy has alot easier to conquer France if they prefer than over Vichy.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: morgil

Just read through this old thread and got a few pointers...

In the start of the game, Italy should focus on defending against a French or CW DOW, that would enable them to put 4 corps into Italy or Albania.
This is easily done with a unit in Tirana, Palermo/Syracuse and stuffing the rest on the French border.
Imagine youre going for an early Greece with Italy, only to have the french walk across the border, align Yougoslavia, and then knock out Vienna, Bratislava and Trieste just for fun.
Heavily on the French border will also divert French units from the front against Germany.
Watching the US entry, should give you a good inclination on when its "safe" to send a TRS to pick up your units i Ethiopia, but only send one at the time, as the brits are known to gamble over such a sweet prize.

As Italy you would want to join the fun asap, for the brotherly love from Germany, but you would want to delay it as much as possible to avoid the tougher "love" of the CW fleet, and US entry. If the WAllies make obvious mistakes, like undefended french border, Malta and/or Gibraltar, you hop to it regardless of the Senates mumblings.

You would also very much like to align Yougoslavia youreself, by taking out Greece, but I'm not sure that the benefits to that outweighs the downsides.
Consider US entering the war, and going for a quick kill of Italy, they will accieve it. Then they look at the map, all the invasion forces available is in Italian Coast, and umm the dragon has more soft underbelly, that leads to Bulgaria, and 3 more hexes to the oilfields in Romania.
It is usually better to just kill of Price Paul right away.

As the German player there is nothing I would rather see than France committing 6 or so land units to the Italian front. If things got desperate for Italy, I'd just rail move a garrison (or two) into Milan and let France chew on those for a while.

I had this discussion recently with Peter about setting up the French units, and I am quite firm in my opinion that France should look to its own defenses first. Once Paris falls, all those French units in Italy will go away. Now if Germany attacks the USSR in 1939, that's another story, ...

As Germany I have on a few occasions when France lightly defended the Italian border ordered Italy to attack into France. Germany then reinforces the attack. With the mountain line breached you can begin the move towards Paris from the south. I have even captured Paris from the south when the German main offencive was stopped.

If the mountain line is breached early Germany/Italy has alot easier to conquer France if they prefer than over Vichy.

Oh, I agree that France has to defend the Italian border.

What I do not agree with is putting sufficient French troops along the border to attack in the mountains on, say, 2 Italian corps defending the passes. The farther the French go into Italy, the farther they are from supporting the very serious attack by Germany through Belgium.

[morgil]

Yes, France too should look at its defenses first, its very easy to have a mexican standoff at the French / Italian border, you need about 3 italian units, and 4 French, and its all peace and love. However, if Italy, setting up first, puts only one unit on the border, or two stacked, it should be in Frances interest to set up so they can get 4 corps inside Italy on the 4th impulse. Im not talking fighting here, but a walk to first base. If Italy reinforces the border before that, just shuffle the troops north again.

France would not make much hayway inside Italy, but it would be extremely annoying for the Axis, with Yugo troops running rampant, blocking the Bremmer pass, conquering Albania, burning the factory in Trieste, turning Vichy...

So Italy is best served by definately going for defence in the first few turns, and if they can defend while pressuring France to defend in the south aswell, all the merrier.