War in China

[lomyrin]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

In this game, were the builts for Japan including finishing the construction pool carriers and repair pool cruisers & BB, and building 2 CP per turn ?

I ask this because it looks to me as if the Japanese have put a strong emphasis on land builts.

I am preparing the 1939-1941 builts for my Japanese in our new Vassal game, and I could not fit a single INF for the moment in my build plan. Only 2 MIL in 1939.

I am planning an initial production of 10 in 1939 and 13 in 1940. This is without taking extra resources in China so it could raise to 15 if I take Sian and another resource and clear the railways, but in your game this was achieved very late.

I am also saving 1 BP per turn for building a synth in late 1940, and saving 1 oil per turn and planning on an oil consumption of 1 per turn too.

How did you came up with a so large army ? You did not build CP, no Synth, no oil saved, no navy ?

If that is true, this Japanese is already doomed in front of the Western Allies.

I think the Japanese have built a fair amount of units other than land for China.

Force pool has 3Ftr, no NAV, 1large BB, 5 CV1.
Construct pool has 3 large BB, 5CV1
Arrivals:
S/O41: Ftr,NAV, TRS,CV,HQ,Pil
N/D41: 2Pil, CVP,TRS,Div.
J/F42: CV
M/A42: CV
M/J42 CV,large BB
11Convoys spare in port, 3 still for US trading, there are 9 in Cina Sea.
10 Oil saved

[composer99]

The US hasn't even passed the second Japanese resource cut-off? Yikes.

[lomyrin]

US entry lefel for Japan's side is only at 15 and the same on the European side.
 
Over successive updates to the program the US entry picks have been adversely affected and this is not a normal entry level. It does distort the game somewhat but figuring strictly on time, the war on the CW ought to start on S/O 41 regardless of US entry levels.

[composer99]

Really? If US entry is low enough then the Japanese should consider putting the war off until May/June 1942. The later the US is in the war the later the Mighty Green Monster appears on the scene.

[Mike Parker]

I think he is saying though, that with the borked up USE levels that he should look at his current game and consider S/O 41 as the time to hit the CW.  He does get the benefit of the trade with the US longer than he should, but as long as he considers his timetable in China to be limited by what is considered a proper date to attack the Wallies, then he should be good!

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

I think he is saying though, that with the borked up USE levels that he should look at his current game and consider S/O 41 as the time to hit the CW.  He does get the benefit of the trade with the US longer than he should, but as long as he considers his timetable in China to be limited by what is considered a proper date to attack the Wallies, then he should be good!

IMO, the proper date for Japan to go to war with the CW/US is as late as possible. Any events that push that date later in the war should be taken advantage of by Japan.

The US can't kill Axis soldiers if they aren't in the war yet.

That's the best place for them.....sitting on the West Coast watching the smoke rise in Asia.

Good Hunting.

MR

[sajbalk]

As late as possible for Japan to attack the US is good, with a couple of exceptions:
1. If the US can DOW Japan, it will take on the surprise impulse Kwajelein, have a good chance at shredding the convoy lines, and have a good chance to hold the Phillipines.
2. If the CW can reinforce its Pacific possessions, Rabaul becomes a great Allied forward base,
3. If the CW reinforce the NEI and hold each oil with a WP corps.

Better for Japan to DOW too early than too late.

[lomyrin]

July/August 41 and China got the initiative. Rain in the south and fine up north.
China just draws back into the central mountains. The Communists holds their positions.

Japan takes a combined since rain in the south limits their moves anyway. More preparations for the war with the CW are made. Several SUB's sailed to Canton. A few land moves are made toweards Kweiyang.

[Jagdtiger14]

What about a possible war with USSR? If Germany plans on a '41 Barb, then you should be ready to assist in any way. Also, if Germany is not doing a '41 Barb, then USSR will probably DOW Japan. Our group likes to build land units early for Japan to be ready and in position for any eventuality...also a strong showing of land units in Manchuria can make the USSR re-consider a possible DOW on Japan. I concur with Steve Balk's Synth builds. Buying cp's is very important for Japan, but not really in '39/early '40. I would build air/pilots and land units.
C

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Without doing a detailed analysis, your ship repairs seem to be started rather early. Those units will arrive when there is nothing for them to do. They just sit around idle until 1941 don't they?

The infantry are also going to be necessary for the war in the Pacific, and if they are built early they can be earning their wages in China during all of 1940.

You're damned right Steve !!! How didn't I saw that earlier !
I did not play Japan for too much time, I'm gonna revise that immediately !

Edit : I also postponned the construction pool builts by 1 turn, and manage to replace the 2 MIL by INF, and add a MIL. I may have more, depending on the resources I gain in China.

[lomyrin]

Storm in the south andfine in the north. CHina retreats a little more.

Japan attacks and kills a nac tionalist Inf antry est of Kweiyang but loses a Terr and all disrupted. The Marine begins a trek towards the coast.
HQ Yamamoto reorganizes 4 units.

[Mike Parker]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

I think he is saying though, that with the borked up USE levels that he should look at his current game and consider S/O 41 as the time to hit the CW.  He does get the benefit of the trade with the US longer than he should, but as long as he considers his timetable in China to be limited by what is considered a proper date to attack the Wallies, then he should be good!

IMO, the proper date for Japan to go to war with the CW/US is as late as possible. Any events that push that date later in the war should be taken advantage of by Japan.

The US can't kill Axis soldiers if they aren't in the war yet.

That's the best place for them.....sitting on the West Coast watching the smoke rise in Asia.

Good Hunting.

MR

I agree; however, in this sort of thing using the event 'The US Entry Chit draw for taking Chinese cities is not working properly' would rather defeat the whole purpose wouldn't it? I agree with you the proper time is to delay the inevitable conflict with the CW and USA, but by looking at his play so far, it is safe I think to say he has time in China till about S/O 41 and at that time his OOB should be built up and positioned to strike the CW holdings in the far east.

IF everything was working, and the USE was low due to luck of the draw, then I wholeheartedly agree, put off the attack against the CW as long as possible. *ponders* I might be sticking my foot in my mouth, because I haven't really thought this statement out... and it would be impossible I think, but if the USE were horribly retarded, as Japan I would NEVER attack the CW, I would let 1945 come and go before attacking.

[coregames]

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

...if the USE were horribly retarded, as Japan I would NEVER attack the CW, I would let 1945 come and go before attacking.

Got to have the NEI oil, and some would argue, the sooner the better. It's a trade-off, but I've seen a Nov/Dec 1940 DoW on the CW by Japan, and it paid dividends, even though they had to jump early on the US as well (Jul/Aug 1941). The key is that the CW is so unprepared at that point, and it might even lead to the fall of India if the TERR draws are unfavorable.

If you avoid ever attacking the CW positions, then the allies will begin their drive on your interior lines from much closer bases.

[micheljq]

How much saved oil should Japan have when it enters war with USA?

[Mike Parker]

Well sure. But I was in the fantasy land where the USE never gets high enough for the US to DOW Japan. In such a situation, as Japan I would put off the DOW on the CW, and would take on China and the USSR (assuming Germany is launching a 41 Barb).

The point though is that in my opinion the Japanese player needs to DOW the CW as late as they think they can get by with it. As you say they need the NEI Oil.

[sajbalk]

NEI oil is crucial, but also important are the US entry of options of CW reinforce the Pacific and CW reinforce the NEI> Having either happen before a JAP DOW could be catastrophic.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

How much saved oil should Japan have when it enters war with USA?

I strive to have 6 stored oil plus both Synth in operation before DoWing CW and/or U.S.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

How much saved oil should Japan have when it enters war with USA?

I aim at around 15 when I play Japan, saving 1 per turn in addition to the 4 initial that I have. There are about 12 turns before war with the USA / CW, so 1 per turn is OK for me.

I then try to keep this reserve through 42 & 43. It garantie me about 4-5 turns of possible full action against the US & CW, even with all oil cut from me. It can also be used as emergency resources for my factories in I need more war material in 42-44.

[lomyrin]

July/August 41 axis impulse 6.

Japanese are following the retreating Chinese as best they can with storm in the south and a stalemate in the north. The large Japanese Marine is slowly moving towards ChangSha from where they can rail to the coast. Japan still has time to deal a few more blows to the Nationalists before they will look southeastwards for the next major fight.

[lomyrin]

July/August 41 Japan's impulse 8 still has storm in the south and a fine weather stalemate in the north.

Japan did continue to bring more force towards Kweiyang and movedd the large Marine anotherstep on the long road to the coast for other duties.

The turn ended on a 2 and for the next turn Japan is going to hit the CW and NEI, the forces for that are in position. They will also take out Rabaul and place a unit in Kwajalein. This then will conclude this example of the war in China.

China's builds now are at 4 BP and Japan is at 16 with some 12 oil saved. Undoubtedly China will eventually regain some territory but the are not likely to be a threat to Japan until perhaps 44. At present Japan is maintaining a garrison of over 20 so there will be no partisans for a while at least.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
This then will conclude this example of the war in China.

Will there be another ?